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Universal Basic Income

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On 11/23/2022 at 3:22 PM, SalinasSpartan said:

And if they aren’t lucky enough to get somebody to be in a relationship with them? Then phuck em, shouldn’t have been so ugly and/or weird? 

We are desperate to hire anybody with an accounting degree and the desire to learn and work at it. It's a ticket directly into the middle class , and the upper middle class eventually. 

We would definitely hire an ugly CPA if they did good work. Hell, I'm far from the most attractive person and I've made a good accounting career. I'm not saying everyone needs to learn accounting, but there are multiple paths to success even for ugly, fat, weird people. 

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On 11/23/2022 at 3:17 PM, bornontheblue said:

I've seen enough of our education system , and experienced it personally to know that we are definitely not getting young people ready with the right skills to move forward. 

Our education system is more of  daycare , more interested in keeping the bureaucracy funded than getting young people ready. 

Yeh, and most of that (to whatever extent in various locales) comes from political and social pressure at all levels.  But, schools are on the environmental side of what determines "g".   A mix of both shared and non-shared environments, but not genetics.  We can have "perfect" schools, a more educated and intelligent society, but still tens of millions of people with intelligence(s) deficits compared to what is needed for marketable skills for good paying jobs.  

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On 11/23/2022 at 2:27 PM, bornontheblue said:

We are desperate to hire anybody with an accounting degree and the desire to learn and work at it. It's a ticket directly into the middle class , and the upper middle class eventually. 

We would definitely hire an ugly CPA if they did good work. Hell, I'm far from the most attractive person and I've made a good accounting career. I'm not saying everyone needs to learn accounting, but there are multiple paths to success even for ugly, fat, weird people. 

Dude…. I was CLEARLY talking about the example of Wal-Mart employees, NOT CPAs. So I will clarify, again.

YOU said 

On 11/23/2022 at 1:54 PM, bornontheblue said:

A person who works at Walmart for several years is probably making enough to sustain themselves especially if they are a two household income. It won't be  extravagant but enough to get by. 

My (clarified) question in response to this is:

What about the Wal-Mart employee that is not in a relationship, for whatever reason, and therefore is not able to be in a two income household? Sucks to be them? 

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And I also could at least understand the vitriol towards “lazy people” that don’t work, if our system would allow for 100% employment… but it doesn’t. Democratic appointee, Republican appointee, doesn’t matter, The Fed would never allow the country to be at 0% unemployment. 

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On 11/23/2022 at 4:38 PM, SalinasSpartan said:

Dude…. I was CLEARLY talking about the example of Wal-Mart employees, NOT CPAs. So I will clarify, again.

YOU said 

My (clarified) question in response to this is:

What about the Wal-Mart employee that is not in a relationship, for whatever reason, and therefore is not able to be in a two income household? Sucks to be them? 

Because Walmart employees,  even ugly weird ones are fully capable of taking steps to advance their economic prospects. Lack of initiative to do so is not societies responsibility. Some people have bigger obstacles than others, I get that, but there is always a way to add value to your labor, even if you are ugly fat and weird. 

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On 11/23/2022 at 4:47 PM, SalinasSpartan said:

And I also could at least understand the vitriol towards “lazy people” that don’t work, if our system would allow for 100% employment… but it doesn’t. Democratic appointee, Republican appointee, doesn’t matter, The Fed would never allow the country to be at 0% unemployment. 

0% unemployment is not how economists measure full employment. 

We are at full employment right now dude. The 3.5 percent rate is mostly transitional workers that have recently come Into the workforce. Moms that have no more kids at home during the workday that want to go back to a career, students who have just graduated and want full time work. People for whatever reason who were out of the labor force and want back in. 

There are currently more jobs open than workers available to fill them. 

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On 11/23/2022 at 3:57 PM, bornontheblue said:

0% unemployment is not how economists measure full employment. 

We are at full employment right now dude. The 3.5 percent rate is mostly transitional workers that have recently come Into the workforce. Moms that have no more kids at home during the workday that want to go back to a career, students who have just graduated and want full time work. People for whatever reason who were out of the labor force and want back in. 

There are currently more jobs open than workers available to fill them. 

Which is why I'm not a big fan of what the fed is doing. Deliberately putting us into a severe recession to cut jobs and worker pay to "stamp out inflation" when that wasn't the cause of the inflation in the first place. It was the amount of free money that they pumped in over the last 2 years and the decades of quantitative easing. I think think their cure is poison. I guess it's damned if you do, damned if you don't. The thing is, you know as soon as they hammer down the economy and stock market they are gonna turn the spigot back on. The ones left holding the bag are going to be the workers.

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On 11/23/2022 at 3:52 PM, bornontheblue said:

Because Walmart employees,  even ugly weird ones are fully capable of taking steps to advance their economic prospects. Lack of initiative to do so is not societies responsibility. Some people have bigger obstacles than others, I get that, but there is always a way to add value to your labor, even if you are ugly fat and weird. 

And what if they aren’t capable of doing the work of a CPA? Phuck em? You make it sound like making a decision to just work at a department store means it’s ok for that person to suffer.

And again, those jobs are NECESSARY for our country to function. In your idealized world, how would this work? Would those NECESSARY below cost of living jobs be age restricted so that only those under 25 and over 55 can do them? 

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On 11/23/2022 at 3:57 PM, bornontheblue said:

0% unemployment is not how economists measure full employment. 

We are at full employment right now dude. The 3.5 percent rate is mostly transitional workers that have recently come Into the workforce. Moms that have no more kids at home during the workday that want to go back to a career, students who have just graduated and want full time work. People for whatever reason who were out of the labor force and want back in. 

There are currently more jobs open than workers available to fill them. 

I’m not talking about economists measure anything, I am talking about human beings. Our system MANDATES that there are human beings that do not have jobs. That is a fact. Which is why I don’t understand the vitriol towards a group of people that our system MANDATES exist.

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On 11/23/2022 at 10:24 AM, bornontheblue said:

No it wasn't. 

You may disagree with his argument, but that doesn't make it invalid. 

it's not bullshit

welfare "fraud" is another phucking boogie man...almost on the same level as election fraud

 

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On 11/23/2022 at 5:13 PM, SalinasSpartan said:

And what if they aren’t capable of doing the work of a CPA? Phuck em? You make it sound like making a decision to just work at a department store means it’s ok for that person to suffer.

And again, those jobs are NECESSARY for our country to function. In your idealized world, how would this work? Would those NECESSARY below cost of living jobs be age restricted so that only those under 25 and over 55 can do them? 

No you fool. There are many paths to well paying jobs besides accounting, especially in this tight labor market. These entry level jobs are certainly necessary and are a great stepping stone to advance into other better paying jobs. If a person decides to stay at the bottom rung because of lack of initiative that's on them. Society is not responsible for supplementing their income. It is a tremendous waste of resources to reward lack of initiative. Well running countries don't do this. 

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On 11/23/2022 at 4:21 PM, renoskier said:

it's not bullshit

welfare "fraud" is another phucking boogie man...almost on the same level as election fraud

 

Not really, there is a ton of welfare fraud. It comes from disability claims though.

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On 11/23/2022 at 5:15 PM, SalinasSpartan said:

I’m not talking about economists measure anything, I am talking about human beings. Our system MANDATES that there are human beings that do not have jobs. That is a fact. Which is why I don’t understand the vitriol towards a group of people that our system MANDATES exist.

How exactly does our system mandate joblessness? You are crazy 

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On 11/23/2022 at 5:21 PM, renoskier said:

it's not bullshit

welfare "fraud" is another phucking boogie man...almost on the same level as election fraud

 

In my opinion any able bodied person capable of earning a living , or at least gain the skills to be fully self sufficient and decides to remain on welfare long term is committing fraud. 

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On 11/23/2022 at 4:37 PM, bornontheblue said:

No you fool. There are many paths to well paying jobs besides accounting, especially in this tight labor market. These entry level jobs are certainly necessary and are a great stepping stone to advance into other better paying jobs. If a person decides to stay at the bottom rung because of lack of initiative that's on them. Society is not responsible for supplementing their income. It is a tremendous waste of resources to reward lack of initiative. Well running countries don't do this. 

AGAIN, simple question man, who works in those NECESSARY jobs that pay below a living wage? You keep running away from that question. 

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On 11/23/2022 at 6:00 PM, SalinasSpartan said:

AGAIN, simple question man, who works in those NECESSARY jobs that pay below a living wage? You keep running away from that question. 

I have answered that question multiple times. Young people just starting our, students. Hell, I left a decent paying job that I hated and delivered pizzas and earned 7.25 an hour while I went back to college and earned my CPA license. This was about 15 years ago. Many people are in the jobs for many reasons including people who don't want to advance beyond them. 

 

On 11/23/2022 at 6:01 PM, SalinasSpartan said:

You are being either willfully ignorant or dishonest here.

No, I am perplexed by this. How does our society mandate joblessness maybe in isolated rare circumstances I might buy it, but mandated joblessness is not a pervasive problem. In fact we have the opposite problem. There are not enough workers to fill the jobs we need. I'm not convinced a mild or sharp recession will cause the huge jumps in unemployment like we used to see  because of demographic issues. Lack of workers is going to be a big problem going forward. 

 

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On 11/23/2022 at 5:15 PM, bornontheblue said:

I have answered that question multiple times. Young people just starting our, students. Hell, I left a decent paying job that I hated and delivered pizzas and earned 7.25 an hour while I went back to college and earned my CPA license. This was about 15 years ago. Many people are in the jobs for many reasons including people who don't want to advance beyond them. 

 

No, I am perplexed by this. How does our society mandate joblessness maybe in isolated rare circumstances I might buy it, but mandated joblessness is not a pervasive problem. In fact we have the opposite problem. There are not enough workers to fill the jobs we need. I'm not convinced a mild or sharp recession will cause the huge jumps in unemployment like we used to see  because of demographic issues. Lack of workers is going to be a big problem going forward. 

 

Unless you are going to draft workers, there aren’t enough people “just starting out” to fill those jobs. And if you want to draft workers, ok, but just say that. But if you do not want to do that…

AGAIN I ASK, how will all those positions be filled? 

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On 11/23/2022 at 6:25 PM, SalinasSpartan said:

Unless you are going to draft workers, there aren’t enough people “just starting out” to fill those jobs. And if you want to draft workers, ok, but just say that. But if you do not want to do that…

AGAIN I ASK, how will all those positions be filled? 

Well yeah that's why the entry level wage has gone way up on the last few years because businesses are competing for workers and raising wages to attract workers. Some will come off the sidelines and get back into the workforce at the higher wages. It certainly doesn't help to fill those jobs by paying people not to work. Our country has relied  on immigration to fill jobs in the past especially in the early industrial period in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.  We can certainly rely on immigration again. 

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On 11/23/2022 at 5:33 PM, bornontheblue said:

Well yeah that's why the entry level wage has gone way up on the last few years because businesses are competing for workers and raising wages to attract workers. Some will come off the sidelines and get back into the workforce at the higher wages. It certainly doesn't help to fill those jobs by paying people not to work. Our country has relied  on immigration to fill jobs in the past especially in the early industrial period in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.  We can certainly rely on immigration again. 

This isn’t answering the question though. There are currently many necessary jobs that pay below a living wage. You seem to take issue with an adult with any experience making the choice to work these jobs, so once every person “just getting started” takes one of these positions, who fills the rest?
 

I’m not asking a philosophical question. I mean literally how can these positions be filled in a way that is acceptable to you? 

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