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Universal Basic Income

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On 11/23/2022 at 12:49 PM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

45 million US citizens have an IQ in the 80-85 range.  I realize IQ is subjective and not the perfect measure of capability but generally that means one is capable enough to function but not enough to earn a livable wage in, say, Boise, Idaho.  

Ok. Is that a factor of genetics, or society poorly preparing them to fly on their own? 

Probably more of the latter. 

 

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On 11/23/2022 at 11:08 AM, bornontheblue said:

Minimum wage jobs are very rare. The price point for unskilled labor moved well beyond 7.25 an hour years ago. 

Entry level workers are definitely important in our economy. You know what else is important in our economy people improving the value of their labor through experience and learning new skills. Hardly anyone stays at the entry level wage for unskilled labor. Most people earn a much better living through individual effort and initiative. Everybody starts out working for cheap as an unskilled laborer, very few stay there, and if they do its usually because they have made terrible decisions with their lives. 

 

Sorry, I should have been more specific. Jobs that pay below a living wage are necessary for the country to function.

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On 11/23/2022 at 11:30 AM, East Coast Aztec said:

It sounded like they were not working at all.  One thing that does irk me about some of the welfare programs is that they are no longer designed for upward mobility, so people make business decisions like most other people do.  If I make X, I get a bunch of benefits.  But if I make X + $20, I lose some of those benefits entirely.  They need to prorate some of this stuff, to induce or re-induce the notion of working hard gets you better living conditions.  Right now, it is work too hard, you have worse living conditions (at least for a while).  That said, I would be fine for eliminating plenty of tax credits.  They are usually incentives to do certain actions (have kids, buy home, spend on business) that could be used with the extra revenues to focus on those who needed those funds.  Or we could pay off debts, fund neighborhood assets and workforce training programs better.

If you want to get rid of “welfare cliffs” (don’t know if that’s a real term but I think you get what I mean), then you have no argument from me. It is pretty shitty for people to have to take in to consideration what effect a promotion will have on whether or not they will qualify for Medicaid, for example. 

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On 11/23/2022 at 1:42 PM, SalinasSpartan said:

Sorry, I should have been more specific. Jobs that pay below a living wage are necessary for the country to function.

Ok true. However most of the people who work these jobs are people who have other arrangements to get by and are in a transitioning phase . My daughter makes about 16 dollars an hour as a part time barista and pretty much uses it for fun money, and to save. She has a full scholarship at The College of Idaho and lives with us on the weekends and the summer. She will be probably be your kids boss someday ( just kidding) but she is not using the job as a means to survive.  A lot of people who work these entry level jobs aren't trying to survive on them. We have all started out at an entry level and worked to improve the value of our labor. There are some people like @halfmanhalfbronco said that are incapable of advancing past the entry level stage. If it is a true disability then I have no problem with cash support to supplement them

 

If the economy goes to shit and people can't find jobs I have no problem with cash support to them either. But it's gotta be temporary. Our country is better off when people are using their skills and labor to add value to the economy. 

 

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On 11/23/2022 at 1:57 PM, bornontheblue said:

Ok true. However most of the people who work these jobs are people who have other arrangements to get by and are in a transitioning phase . My daughter makes about 16 dollars an hour as a part time barista and pretty much uses it for fun money, and to save. She has a full scholarship at The College of Idaho and lives with us on the weekends and the summer. She will be probably be your kids boss someday ( just kidding) but she is not using the job as a means to survive.  A lot of people who work these entry level jobs aren't trying to survive on them. We have all started out at an entry level and worked to improve the value of our labor. There are some people like @halfmanhalfbronco said that are incapable of advancing past the entry level stage. If it is a true disability then I have no problem with cash support to supplement them

 

If the economy goes to shit and people can't find jobs I have no problem with cash support to them either. But it's gotta be temporary. Our country is better off when people are using their skills and labor to add value to the economy. 

 

That's the thing.  There are 40-45 million Americans that are capable of working enough that they will not qualify for assistance  but not capable enough to earn a living wage.  

 

 

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On 11/23/2022 at 12:57 PM, bornontheblue said:

Ok true. However most of the people who work these jobs are people who have other arrangements to get by and are in a transitioning phase . My daughter makes about 16 dollars an hour as a part time barista and pretty much uses it for fun money, and to save. She has a full scholarship at The College of Idaho and lives with us on the weekends and the summer. She will be probably be your kids boss someday ( just kidding) but she is not using the job as a means to survive.  A lot of people who work these entry level jobs aren't trying to survive on them. We have all started out at an entry level and worked to improve the value of our labor. There are some people like @halfmanhalfbronco said that are incapable of advancing past the entry level stage. If it is a true disability then I have no problem with cash support to supplement them

 

If the economy goes to shit and people can't find jobs I have no problem with cash support to them either. But it's gotta be temporary. Our country is better off when people are using their skills and labor to add value to the economy. 

 

Man, not everybody can just “make arrangements”. It’s not that easy. 

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On 11/23/2022 at 1:07 PM, SalinasSpartan said:

Man, not everybody can just “make arrangements”. It’s not that easy. 

Being from a middle to upper middle class family with good values has some advantages.

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On 11/23/2022 at 2:07 PM, SalinasSpartan said:

Man, not everybody can just “make arrangements”. It’s not that easy. 

I agree , but you are missing my point. Most people in these jobs are not working them to survive. Most are students. Or kids who are just starting out and living with their parents. 

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On 11/23/2022 at 2:07 PM, SalinasSpartan said:

Man, not everybody can just “make arrangements”. It’s not that easy. 

Yep.  This is why I favor a UBI.  Stories like @grandjean87 shared.  Instances I have seen.  We disagree that it should be on top of existing social safety nets simply because I don't think we could do both, we have to choose.  

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On 11/23/2022 at 2:14 PM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Yep.  This is why I favor a UBI.  Stories like @grandjean87 shared.  Instances I have seen.  We disagree that it should be on top of existing social safety nets simply because I don't think we could do both, we have to choose.  

Paying people not to work is not a good idea. 

Would you go to BSU game this Friday and hand out a 20 dollar bill to everyone you see with no expectation of anything in return. Why would you expect everyone else to do it?  

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On 11/23/2022 at 12:29 PM, Jackrabbit said:

The mechanisms that created reservations and ghettos are different but the cultures created are quite the same.  Feelings of hopelessness, destroyed families drugs hate, etc etc.   No matter how much money you throw at this...without counciling education and accountibility, there will be no change.

Having lived in both rural and inner cities, work ethic of the poor are exactly the same.  I mean that flat out honestly.  That hopelessness, destroyed families, drugs, hate, a lot of that was external pressures that fractured the nuclear families and neighborhoods, sending back to go without collecting 200 dollars.  The same in a rural area as it is in the inner city, just not in the same raw numbers.  Gotta make high crime areas safer, get access to a halfway decent job, and remove artificial barriers and policies that keep the spiral spiraling, and create accountable safety nets (I touched on prorated services in another post), and after a generation or so, we can see some improvements.  Now, do democrats want to risk losing a dependent base, and do republicans want to lose their fear porn?  All signs in the last 50 years say no, but maybe we can be tired of watching people eat shit their entire life and change the party tenets.

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On 11/23/2022 at 2:18 PM, bornontheblue said:

Paying people not to work is not a good idea. 

Would you go to BSU game this Friday and hand out a 20 dollar bill to everyone you see with no expectation of anything in return. Why would you expect everyone else to do it?  

 

More people will use that to take risks, innovate and create than not work.  Nobody is going to live off 1000 a month.  But it might increase parental involvement as one parent can stay home.  It might give somebody the courage to start a new business or pursue new skills and education.  It might allow the black mother of two to move from a violent neighborhood.  It might create social capital we are desperately lacking. 

The BSU game analogy is a bad one.  I would gladly gamble an 8% increase in my taxes on the societal benefit of a UBI program.

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On 11/23/2022 at 1:14 PM, bornontheblue said:

I agree , but you are missing my point. Most people in these jobs are not working them to survive. Most are students. Or kids who are just starting out and living with their parents. 

I don’t think I am missing the point. Not everybody has the luxury to just live with their parents when they are “starting out”; you seem to be under the assumption that this is just always an option one has in their back pocket. It’s not.

And when I go to Wal-Mart, for example, I see plenty of people older than my mid-30s ass working there as regular associates. What about them? We just tell them, “Sorry, you just weren’t ambitious enough in life and you deserve to suffer because of that”?

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On 11/23/2022 at 2:39 PM, SalinasSpartan said:

I don’t think I am missing the point. Not everybody has the luxury to just live with their parents when they are “starting out”; you seem to be under the assumption that this is just always an option one has in their back pocket. It’s not.

And when I go to Wal-Mart, for example, I see plenty of people older than my mid-30s ass working there as regular associates. What about them? We just tell them, “Sorry, you just weren’t ambitious enough in life and you deserve to suffer because of that”?

A person who works at Walmart for several years is probably making enough to sustain themselves especially if they are a two household income. It won't be  extravagant but enough to get by. 

If someone doesn't have the ambition to improve their own economic circumstances why am I and other taxpayers responsible for subsidizing them?? We shouldn't be, and people should take responsibility for achieving their own good fortune. There  are multiple paths to get ahead in life, most people are fully capable of doing it, and society benefits tremendously when they do. 

 

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On 11/23/2022 at 2:39 PM, SalinasSpartan said:

I don’t think I am missing the point. Not everybody has the luxury to just live with their parents when they are “starting out”; you seem to be under the assumption that this is just always an option one has in their back pocket. It’s not.

And when I go to Wal-Mart, for example, I see plenty of people older than my mid-30s ass working there as regular associates. What about them? We just tell them, “Sorry, you just weren’t ambitious enough in life and you deserve to suffer because of that”?

Also , I grew in utter poverty. Dropped out of high school, was homeless off and on for a few years. I've worked some shitty jobs , for shitty pay. 

Not gonna give you my whole life story, but if an idiot like me can overcome a lot of obstacles then most people can do it. 

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On 11/23/2022 at 1:40 PM, bornontheblue said:

Ok. Is that a factor of genetics, or society poorly preparing them to fly on their own? 

Probably more of the latter. 

 

"g" (general intelligence factor) is highly influenced by genetics.  The science folks who research psychometrics don't all agree and the magnitudes are still subject of study.  Some have it around 50%.  Whatever it is, the inherited aspect of general intelligence is substantial.  That is going to likely to have greater importance as the automation of automation further evolves.   

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On 11/23/2022 at 2:14 PM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Yep.  This is why I favor a UBI.  Stories like @grandjean87 shared.  Instances I have seen.  We disagree that it should be on top of existing social safety nets simply because I don't think we could do both, we have to choose.  

I'm not for the Murray wholesale replacement of the welfare state, but I am in favor of choices. If you take the UBI, you give up entitlements to many other in-kind benefits.  We would need a long grandfathering period anyway for Soc. Sec. and Medicare.  I'm still open to various ideas.  If we had universal health insurance, I could see a lower UBI.  Some of the experiments are more like half of the common $1k/month.  They seem to have benefits.  Let many experiments give us insights. 

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On 11/23/2022 at 3:07 PM, grandjean87 said:

"g" (general intelligence factor) is highly influenced by genetics.  The science folks who research psychometrics don't all agree and the magnitudes are still subject of study.  Some have it around 50%.  Whatever it is, the inherited aspect of general intelligence is substantial.  That is going to likely to have greater importance as the automation of automation further evolves.   

I've seen enough of our education system , and experienced it personally to know that we are definitely not getting young people ready with the right skills to move forward. 

Our education system is more of  daycare , more interested in keeping the bureaucracy funded than getting young people ready. 

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On 11/23/2022 at 1:59 PM, bornontheblue said:

Also , I grew in utter poverty. Dropped out of high school, was homeless off and on for a few years. I've worked some shitty jobs , for shitty pay. 

Not gonna give you my whole life story, but if an idiot like me can overcome a lot of obstacles then most people can do it. 

I had similar shitty circumstances growing up that I also don’t care to get into. As I have lived my life I have noticed that among people like us, your “I overcame the hand I was dealt, what’s your excuse?” Mentality is actually pretty common. I mean, I can at least follow the logic, although I just completely disagree with it. 

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On 11/23/2022 at 1:54 PM, bornontheblue said:

A person who works at Walmart for several years is probably making enough to sustain themselves especially if they are a two household income. It won't be  extravagant but enough to get by. 

If someone doesn't have the ambition to improve their own economic circumstances why am I and other taxpayers responsible for subsidizing them?? We shouldn't be, and people should take responsibility for achieving their own good fortune. There  are multiple paths to get ahead in life, most people are fully capable of doing it, and society benefits tremendously when they do. 

 

And if they aren’t lucky enough to get somebody to be in a relationship with them? Then phuck em, shouldn’t have been so ugly and/or weird? 

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