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bornontheblue

Radiant Floor heating Systems

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On 9/9/2022 at 6:48 PM, bornontheblue said:

Anybody ever had one of these in their house? 

Is it more efficient than gas , forced air? 

We are house hunting . 

I would say radiant heat is more efficient than gas forced air. I have radiant cove heat and it's way more efficient and cheaper. Of course it's not in the floor but my bills are way less than my old house in Northern Utah that had gas forced air. It's a lot colder where I currently live and radiant heat is cheap. I do have a propane fireplace for backup in case the electricity goes out. Just my 2 cents. 

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On 9/9/2022 at 7:48 PM, bornontheblue said:

Anybody ever had one of these in their house? 

Is it more efficient than gas , forced air? 

We are house hunting . 

My ex-father-in-law put it in the house he built in the mountains above Boulder and he loved it. According to him, it was much more efficient and he also liked the fact that it helped with his allergies. It was pretty awesome to wake up on a snowy morning when we would visit and walk around in bare feet though. He also put in a radiant heating system under his long driveway that saved him from shoveling snow (for the most part), which was also pretty awesome. 

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My folks put one in the room they built off the side of their shed in Nebraska. It works VERY good. They went with hot water piped through pex and run through a tankless water heater as their system. It takes a while to adjust the temperature, but once you get it dialed in that room will be very comfortable all the time.

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It seems like a good idea for areas that never require air conditioning.  Otherwise you have to pay for two separate systems.  To me it seems susceptible to damage if you want to nail down some new floors or something.  It seems like a bitch to repair.

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We bought a house with it but it wasn't copper it was poly tubing and we couldn't bring ourselves to use it with the fail rate of Kitec plumbing. Well-made pellet stoves and a heat recovery ventilator system is the replacement. Something about wood heat...

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We had it as kids. On cold mornings we would lay on the floor and watch cartoons.

Personally, i have read and heard it is far more efficient than forced air.

Is the lack if radiant heat a scam by the natural gas and furnace industry to stay relevant ?

"We don't have evidence but, we have lot's of theories."

Americans Mayor

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On 9/12/2022 at 4:03 PM, Akkula said:

It seems like a good idea for areas that never require air conditioning.  Otherwise you have to pay for two separate systems.  To me it seems susceptible to damage if you want to nail down some new floors or something.  It seems like a bitch to repair.

akkula many areas have to "pay for two systems". Lots of forced air areas use fossil fuels - gas, heating oil, whatever. that's a separate system than an electric air conditioner. areas that are cold can't use a heat pump either - pretty much all of colorado qualifies as too cold. finally, you gotta know that especially in the west, people use a swamp cooler (a second system), sometimes with an AC backup (a third system), and then can also use a pellet stove (a fourth system). 

On 9/13/2022 at 12:14 PM, Spaztecs said:

We had it as kids. On cold mornings we would lay on the floor and watch cartoons.

Personally, i have read and heard it is far more efficient than forced air.

Is the lack if radiant heat a scam by the natural gas and furnace industry to stay relevant ?

nah. it's just more to install and means you can't make modifications to your floor. we should probably install more though.

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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On 9/13/2022 at 9:29 AM, happycamper said:

akkula many areas have to "pay for two systems". Lots of forced air areas use fossil fuels - gas, heating oil, whatever. that's a separate system than an electric air conditioner. areas that are cold can't use a heat pump either - pretty much all of colorado qualifies as too cold. finally, you gotta know that especially in the west, people use a swamp cooler (a second system), sometimes with an AC backup (a third system), and then can also use a pellet stove (a fourth system). 

nah. it's just more to install and means you can't make modifications to your floor. we should probably install more though.

That's not really true about the "too cold for heat pump" anymore.  Most manufacturers can get 100% design heat output at -10°F and lower. Mitsubishi-Trane for example has 10% heat output at -17°F on their heat pumps and although the COP drops to like 1.2 so it's not much better than electric resistance heat as far as efficiency goes.  Might be cheaper depending on your area to heat with gas at those low temperatures.  And is a good idea to have some sort of backup in case you blow a compressor or something in the middle of winter.

As far as efficiency of a radiant floor, it will be slightly better than forced air if you have the same efficiency furnace/boiler.  The only difference though is the saved fan energy versus a small pump.  But it's mostly going to be negligible. 

If you want the most efficient (and cheapest install) system - you would go with ductless split system heat pumps.  They are also the ugliest though.   

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On 9/13/2022 at 12:46 PM, bsu_alum9 said:

That's not really true about the "too cold for heat pump" anymore.  Most manufacturers can get 100% design heat output at -10°F and lower. Mitsubishi-Trane for example has 10% heat output at -17°F on their heat pumps and although the COP drops to like 1.2 so it's not much better than electric resistance heat as far as efficiency goes.  Might be cheaper depending on your area to heat with gas at those low temperatures.  And is a good idea to have some sort of backup in case you blow a compressor or something in the middle of winter.

I mean that works for washington and idaho, but still not enough for colorado. 

On 9/13/2022 at 12:46 PM, bsu_alum9 said:

As far as efficiency of a radiant floor, it will be slightly better than forced air if you have the same efficiency furnace/boiler.  The only difference though is the saved fan energy versus a small pump.  But it's mostly going to be negligible. 

If you want the most efficient (and cheapest install) system - you would go with ductless split system heat pumps.  They are also the ugliest though.   

there's a lot of passive stuff you can do with bricks and windows facing the southern sky. wyoming rest areas are designed around passive heating that way and it works great. really dictates the layout/orientation of your house though so people aren't really willing to do that. 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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On 9/13/2022 at 6:52 AM, happycamper said:

I mean that works for washington and idaho, but still not enough for colorado. 

there's a lot of passive stuff you can do with bricks and windows facing the southern sky. wyoming rest areas are designed around passive heating that way and it works great. really dictates the layout/orientation of your house though so people aren't really willing to do that. 

Yep.  I would build any new house with a Trombe wall facing south.  Add in Radiant heat using coils buried in the ground for heat and cooling.      

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On 9/13/2022 at 10:46 AM, bsu_alum9 said:

That's not really true about the "too cold for heat pump" anymore.  Most manufacturers can get 100% design heat output at -10°F and lower. Mitsubishi-Trane for example has 10% heat output at -17°F on their heat pumps and although the COP drops to like 1.2 so it's not much better than electric resistance heat as far as efficiency goes.  Might be cheaper depending on your area to heat with gas at those low temperatures.  And is a good idea to have some sort of backup in case you blow a compressor or something in the middle of winter.

As far as efficiency of a radiant floor, it will be slightly better than forced air if you have the same efficiency furnace/boiler.  The only difference though is the saved fan energy versus a small pump.  But it's mostly going to be negligible. 

If you want the most efficient (and cheapest install) system - you would go with ductless split system heat pumps.  They are also the ugliest though.   

That tracks with what I have seen about the mini split heat pump that is reversable for A/C in the summer.  I understand you are able to use them in places like Minnesota too.  Maybe you want to do a gas fireplace or something if you really want to supplement.  

I have used mini split systems here in Costa Rica for the whole time.  I really like them because you can cool a specific room instead of having to cool off the entire house and you can get a strong cooling quickly in your space.  I don't have any experience with heating, though...but I have been checking out some options on Youtube.  I am trying to help my mom build a narrow house that is on multiple levels so not having to do ductwork is a huge thing that doesn't have to be planned out.  

Also Colorado is SUPER dry in the winter.  Duct systems seem to be really dirty with those ducts having a ton of dust and other potential allergens.  The constant air circulation dries too.  Mini splits may not be better on this but the advantage of ducts is you can do a whole home humidifier.  

I am also really not sure if gas heating is the future or what is cheaper to run.  Assuming you heat your whole home to a higher heat, I am guessing gas...but perhaps more zoned heating with electric could be less.  However with things moving away from fossil fuels and over to solar...mini split heat pumps could actually be less expensive to run.   But solar seems expensive too.

I think...for me...I am always thinking about 15 years down the line when you need to replace a mechanical system.  Mini splits seem to be easiest in that respect.  Traditional furnace second.  A bunch of water tubes seems like it could be a bitch.

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On 9/13/2022 at 1:02 PM, Akkula said:

That tracks with what I have seen about the mini split heat pump that is reversable for A/C in the summer.  I understand you are able to use them in places like Minnesota too.  Maybe you want to do a gas fireplace or something if you really want to supplement.  

I have used mini split systems here in Costa Rica for the whole time.  I really like them because you can cool a specific room instead of having to cool off the entire house and you can get a strong cooling quickly in your space.  I don't have any experience with heating, though...but I have been checking out some options on Youtube.  I am trying to help my mom build a narrow house that is on multiple levels so not having to do ductwork is a huge thing that doesn't have to be planned out.  

Also Colorado is SUPER dry in the winter.  Duct systems seem to be really dirty with those ducts having a ton of dust and other potential allergens.  The constant air circulation dries too.  Mini splits may not be better on this but the advantage of ducts is you can do a whole home humidifier.  

I am also really not sure if gas heating is the future or what is cheaper to run.  Assuming you heat your whole home to a higher heat, I am guessing gas...but perhaps more zoned heating with electric could be less.  However with things moving away from fossil fuels and over to solar...mini split heat pumps could actually be less expensive to run.   But solar seems expensive too.

I think...for me...I am always thinking about 15 years down the line when you need to replace a mechanical system.  Mini splits seem to be easiest in that respect.  Traditional furnace second.  A bunch of water tubes seems like it could be a bitch.

yeah if you have hard water you can ruin your radiant floor heating. OTOH they're just tubes; any mechanical issues won't be embedded in the floor. 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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On 9/13/2022 at 1:16 PM, Akkula said:

Check out this Minnesota video.  The heat pump is taking -14 degree air and pulling 2 degrees out and dropping the temperature of its exhaust air to -16!

 

and I reiterate. that is not "extreme" enough for colorado (or minnesota) but it works fine for washington or idaho. you need a secondary system. a heating system that stops working right when you absolutely need heat to keep from dying and your pipes from bursting doesn't work when it reliably gets -20 and can be expected to get -30 to -40. you need a secondary system. 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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On 9/13/2022 at 10:00 AM, Billings said:

Yep.  I would build any new house with a Trombe wall facing south.  Add in Radiant heat using coils buried in the ground for heat and cooling.      

I'd like to tout the benefits of concrete slab foundations

I never thought I'd say this, for years I thought raised floor (stem wall/crawl space) was preferable to slabs. The slab isn't as comfortable to walk/lay on and making electrical/plumbing changes is more difficult but from an energy efficiency standpoint it is far superior.

My current home is about 2600 sq ft single level, built on a 1' thick post tension slab. My energy usage is ridiculously low when compared to similar size homes built with crawl spaces. The ground temperature under the slab never changes by more than a couple degrees throughout the year and the slab acts as an excellent heat sink.

It can feel cool in the winter relative to the thermostat reading but at that time of year I mostly wear sweats around the house. I turn the heat off when I leave during the day and also have it set to turn off at 10pm at night (I like it cool for sleeping), the temp never drops below 60. In the summer I never set the AC below 80 and I turn the AC off completely when I leave in the morning, even on the hottest of days the interior temperature never goes above 84 by the time I return home in the evening.

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On 9/13/2022 at 1:29 PM, Bob said:

And don't you have to cover the tubes/little pipes in like 5 inches of Gypcrete? Seems expensive and a PITA

usually you put them in slab on grade. it is expensive, it also works better. pita during framing instead of after framing. what I have seen done in some houses is drop the floor joist depth just at a bathroom to provide a depth difference, have radiant floor heating just in the bathroom, and make up the difference in the gyprete cover. 

It is undoubtably nicer than conventional heating. but it isn't usually enough nicer unless you are, say, Suzie McMurry or Cole Cercy. Examples given for no reason whatsoever.... :whistle:

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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