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Akkula

anti-Choicers getting crushed in Kansas

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On 8/6/2022 at 7:31 AM, smltwnrckr said:

It's interesting the rhetorical shift on the right now. They apparently are just fighting against third trimester abortions, abortions anywhere anytime on demand, abortions at 7 months, all things that they already could have prevented under roe/Casey and were prevented overwhelmingly. That sounds like an extremist trying to seem reasonable. 

 

Not to mention the fact that 3rd trimester abortions were vanishingly rare, and pretty much only happened to protect the health of the mother

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On 8/6/2022 at 10:40 AM, GoDogs22 said:

 

Not to mention the fact that 3rd trimester abortions were vanishingly rare, and pretty much only happened to protect the health of the mother

Find me an example of an abortion after 27 weeks, and show me the circumstances. This is a challenge to everyone on here. 

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On 8/4/2022 at 11:20 AM, robe said:

The amendment was too wide open. The left ads made it seem like no abortion was going to be allowed. The right to life needs to come back and incremental put an end to abortions no one supports in Kansas. It was too ambitious and the left kick our ass. 
 

on a side note the people decided, not some judge. 

The right to lifers need to learn from this mistake and move on. 
 

November doesn’t seem to be a Republican blow out like I predicted. A lot of bad candidates for the Republicans. Herschel Walker, Trump could get more minorities votes than he can. 
 

The abortion issue might have more pull than I thought. But I would be hesitant to read to much into the Kansas vote. The left turned it into a vote of no abortion allowed period. Few support that. Props to left and the propaganda win. 

I think the Republicans barely sneak out control of the house. I’m not sure about the senate. 

Was it really because of Leftist fear mongering messaging or the lack of effective messaging from the Pro Lifers ?

Let's face it, the Pro Lifers tried to sneak this one through during a Primary in a mid term Election hoping for the usually low turnout that only the hardcore would come out for.

Did it occur to you that the Voters of Kansas saw some of the extreme anti-abortion laws being passed in other Legislatures and told their Legislature, no, We will not give you the power ?

I will bet my bottom dollar the pro lifers will never put abortion restrictions on any ballot, anywhere going forward. They sorely miscalculated the will of the people. They will undoubtedly redouble their efforts via the Legislative process where the will of the people is disregarded for narrower interests.

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On 8/4/2022 at 11:30 AM, smltwnrckr said:

Well, the bill of rights also says that just because a right isn't enumerated in constitution, doesn't mean it's not a right. 

Not according to the restricted Liberties crowd.

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On 8/6/2022 at 1:27 AM, sactowndog said:

The problem the Republican’s have with the religious right is….. if you believe it is truly a life, the only reasonable exception is the life of the mother.

Now that it’s costing them votes and soon elections the establishment Republicans that didn’t really believe but wanted the votes are in a tough spot..

anything in the middle is as @smltwnrckr says just punishing whores.   

Punishing whores ?

Seriously ?

What of a woman in her late forties, kids are in H.S., married and ends up pregnant ? The last thing her and her husband want are a baby at that stage of life.

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On 8/6/2022 at 12:21 PM, Spaztecs said:

Punishing whores ?

Seriously ?

What of a woman in her late forties, kids are in H.S., married and ends up pregnant ? The last thing her and her husband want are a baby at that stage of life.

The whore comment isn’t literal, at least not for rckr, but certainly a large number of the crusading religious (yes, redundant) anti-abortion crowd think of women fornicating out of wedlock that way.

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On 8/6/2022 at 12:21 PM, Spaztecs said:

What of a woman in her late forties, kids are in H.S., married and ends up pregnant ? The last thing her and her husband want are a baby at that stage of life.

She had sex for something besides procreation? Doesn't want another baby?

scrubs-whore.gif

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On 8/6/2022 at 1:03 PM, Posturedoc said:

The whore comment isn’t literal, at least not for rckr, but certainly a large number of the crusading religious (yes, redundant) anti-abortion crowd think of women fornicating out of wedlock that way.

I mean, I don't think they're whores. But ultimately, IMO, much of the anti-abortion sentiment comes from wanting to make sure women somehow have to experience additional consequences for unapproved sexual behavior. The way they talk about it makes it clear. 

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On 8/4/2022 at 2:42 PM, Akkula said:

The problem the GOP senate candidates will have is that the religious fundamentalists will demand they not be RINOs and be extremists for a total abortion ban.  Woman and sane people will be on the other side and demand that they make reasonable exceptions or allow women to choose.  

They can't straddle the fence or just play to their base while knowing their rhetoric will have no consequences any longer.  They are either going to piss off one group or another.  If they are 100% in with the religious fundamentalists they are OUT.   Plus, evangelicals think they "won" so why do they need to turn out?

Ron Johnson is about to get his ass handed to him.  Fetterman is going to be the pants off of Oz.  Herschel Walker is an idiot.  The GOP is delivering Arizona on a silver plate.  Nevada isn't going to go well for them either.

What exactly is their path to the senate with this in front of them?  If Democrats get the right kinds of ballot initiates they could drive up non-crazy turnout in gerryamdnered districts. 

Unfortunately you are probably right. 

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On 8/6/2022 at 11:43 AM, smltwnrckr said:

Find me an example of an abortion after 27 weeks, and show me the circumstances. This is a challenge to everyone on here. 

What percentage of abortions performed at or after 20 weeks of gestation is due to fetal anomaly or the health of the mother? According to Diana Greene Foster, the lead investigator on the Turnaway study (described above) and a professor at the University of California, San Francisco, Bixby Center for Global Reproductive Health, “[t]here aren’t good data on how often later abortions are for medical reasons.”14 Based on limited research and discussions with researchers in the field, Dr. Foster believes that abortions for fetal anomaly “make up a small minority of later abortion” and that those for life endangerment are even harder to characterize.15 Many of the women whose lives are at risk would be treated under emergency circumstances at a hospital rather than at a dedicated abortion clinic, making numbers more difficult to obtain, according to Dr. Foster.

https://www.ansirh.org/research/ongoing/turnaway-study

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On 8/12/2022 at 4:34 PM, NMpackalum said:

What percentage of abortions performed at or after 20 weeks of gestation is due to fetal anomaly or the health of the mother? According to Diana Greene Foster, the lead investigator on the Turnaway study (described above) and a professor at the University of California, San Francisco, Bixby Center for Global Reproductive Health, “[t]here aren’t good data on how often later abortions are for medical reasons.”14 Based on limited research and discussions with researchers in the field, Dr. Foster believes that abortions for fetal anomaly “make up a small minority of later abortion” and that those for life endangerment are even harder to characterize.15 Many of the women whose lives are at risk would be treated under emergency circumstances at a hospital rather than at a dedicated abortion clinic, making numbers more difficult to obtain, according to Dr. Foster.

https://www.ansirh.org/research/ongoing/turnaway-study

Right. I have quoted this as well. In fact, many of the procedures that are now illegal because of acti-abortion activism in many places, including the hospitals where they take place,  are characterized as miscarriages and/or stillbirths. So the number is virtually impossible to ascertain. 

But it still doesn't answer the question I asked. "Late term" studies typically look at abortion after 20 weeks, some after maybe 22. States have had laws pre-Roe to regulate and restrict abortions after that point, which is around viability. 

I am interested in this example of someone having an abortion after 27 weeks, or in this mythical 7th or 8th month of pregnancy, because they just decided to have one all the sudden. That is now the line that the anti-abortion activists draw to make their positions seem reasonable. I have yet to see one example of this. Whereas, even if you accept that instances of anomolies or health of the mother are rare, we've already seen a bunch of examples of these laws harming the women who do experience them. In like the last couple months. 

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On 8/12/2022 at 5:40 PM, smltwnrckr said:

Right. I have quoted this as well. In fact, many of the procedures that are now illegal because of acti-abortion activism in many places, including the hospitals where they take place,  are characterized as miscarriages and/or stillbirths. So the number is virtually impossible to ascertain. 

But it still doesn't answer the question I asked. "Late term" studies typically look at abortion after 20 weeks, some after maybe 22. States have had laws pre-Roe to regulate and restrict abortions after that point, which is around viability. 

I am interested in this example of someone having an abortion after 27 weeks, or in this mythical 7th or 8th month of pregnancy, because they just decided to have one all the sudden. That is now the line that the anti-abortion activists draw to make their positions seem reasonable. I have yet to see one example of this. Whereas, even if you accept that instances of anomolies or health of the mother are rare, we've already seen a bunch of examples of these laws harming the women who do experience them. In like the last couple months. 

Veronica, a 21-year-old Latina woman in the South, also did not realize she was pregnant until she was in the third trimester of pregnancy. Veronica was dating someone new and wanted to get tested for sexually transmitted infections before commencing a sexual relationship with this man. The clinic also ran a pregnancy test, which was positive. Veronica was shocked. She explained that she had no recognizable pregnancy symptoms and had been having a regular period: “It seemed to me like regular periods because it lasted the same amount of time that they would usually last […] and I never got morning sickness. I wasn't lethargic.” Veronica was immediately clear that she did not want to continue the pregnancy and took the first available abortion appointment at the clinic. When Veronica presented for her abortion appointment, the ultrasound worker determined that she was 25 weeks pregnant. Veronica needed an abortion in the third trimester because the fact that she was pregnant was new information to her when she was already 25 weeks pregnant.

From the Turnaway study. While we all wish the majority of third trimester terminations were due to fetal or maternal indications, there's more evidence that the majority are not for medical indications.  Everyone keeps quoting how rare third trimester abortions are, but from a numbers perspective, there are close to the same number of gun related deaths as there are third trimester abortions. I'm against the new laws and I wished Roe v Wade weren't overturned but while most will find the scale favoring abortion rights, we should at least acknowledge that there are inconvenient truths.

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On 8/12/2022 at 5:28 PM, NMpackalum said:

Veronica, a 21-year-old Latina woman in the South, also did not realize she was pregnant until she was in the third trimester of pregnancy. Veronica was dating someone new and wanted to get tested for sexually transmitted infections before commencing a sexual relationship with this man. The clinic also ran a pregnancy test, which was positive. Veronica was shocked. She explained that she had no recognizable pregnancy symptoms and had been having a regular period: “It seemed to me like regular periods because it lasted the same amount of time that they would usually last […] and I never got morning sickness. I wasn't lethargic.” Veronica was immediately clear that she did not want to continue the pregnancy and took the first available abortion appointment at the clinic. When Veronica presented for her abortion appointment, the ultrasound worker determined that she was 25 weeks pregnant. Veronica needed an abortion in the third trimester because the fact that she was pregnant was new information to her when she was already 25 weeks pregnant.

From the Turnaway study. While we all wish the majority of third trimester terminations were due to fetal or maternal indications, there's more evidence that the majority are not for medical indications.  Everyone keeps quoting how rare third trimester abortions are, but from a numbers perspective, there are close to the same number of gun related deaths as there are third trimester abortions. I'm against the new laws and I wished Roe v Wade weren't overturned but while most will find the scale favoring abortion rights, we should at least acknowledge that there are inconvenient truths.

Well, first of all...

Not a third trimester abortion if she was 25 weeks. Not sure where they decided 25 weeks was the third.  That is right on the edge of viability, and the one crazy abortion example that you found is still before the 27 weeks / third trimester level that I asked for.

Second...

Show me the data that there are as many third trimester abortions aS there are gun deaths. It doesn't exist. Good job finding one example in one of like three existing studies ever to include abortions after 20 weeks, even if it fails to reach what I asked for. I knew there would be one out there somewhere. But how hard did we have to search to find immediate examples of how anti abortion laws hurt and threaten the lives of women at her gestational age? Not.

Third...

Your example tacitly is bad for the a anti abortion position. If that woman had access to actual reproductive health care, she would have been able to make her choice earlier and would have known easier. It's why I laugh when I see people saying they have 'stricter' abortion laws in Europe because they have gestational limits. Yet they allow access to health care and health education for all long before that, so the comparison is silly.

Edit: Actually it's unclear if that last paragraph is true. Since she claims she was having some kind of bleeding in sync with her period over that time. But even still, I have a hard time believing a woman in the South was getting good care and education to help her prevent unwanted pregnancies. On the other hand, this example would also be such an anomaly that it seems like the worst one to use for the case that she's a good example of a 25-week abortion. 

Again, remember that the anti abortion myth of the 7 month pregnant woman getting an abortion is that she carried the pregnancy knowingly and then just wanted it out of her. This is a woman who didn't know she was pregnant, and thus was completely failed by the health care system. I'm surprised your first question here wasn't "Wtf, where does she live and why is their reproductive health care so shitty?!?!" 

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On 8/5/2022 at 11:55 PM, CPslograd said:

https://www.theamericanconservative.com

This is a good article.  He's right too, its been easy for Republicans to mouth I'm pro life without getting into specifics as long as Roe V Wade was around.  Now they have to delve into reality and say things that will piss off constituents either way.

Republicans are going to have to grow some stones and come up with a reasonable position on abortion, otherwise they will allow democrats to frame them as extremists.  The only position less popular than abortion on demand anytime anywhere, is no abortion ever regardless of circumstances.

Sort of like the dog that chased the car & finally caught it - what now ?!?!

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On 8/12/2022 at 6:54 PM, FresnoFacts said:

A voter in Kansas has filed for a statewide hand recount of the 41%-59% abortion ballot question result.

It will be the first recount of a Kansas statewide ballot in 30 years.

 

 

Wait wait wait

any random-ass voter can ask for a recount in Kansas? What a garbage state. 

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On 8/12/2022 at 7:14 PM, SJSUMFA2013 said:

Wait wait wait

any random-ass voter can ask for a recount in Kansas? What a garbage state. 

That can happen in California also.

San Luis Obispo County just finished a hand recount in a County Supervisor race which was requested by a voter. The person making that request also had to cover the recount cost.

The hand recount there matched the machine count exactly.

https://www.sanluisobispo.com/news/politics-government/election/article264429751.html

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On 8/12/2022 at 7:53 PM, FresnoFacts said:

That can happen in California also.

San Luis Obispo County just finished a hand recount in a County Supervisor race which was requested by a voter. The person making that request also had to cover the recount cost.

The hand recount there matched the machine count exactly.

https://www.sanluisobispo.com/news/politics-government/election/article264429751.html

Could always go buy a lottery ticket in hopes to win it big then piss it all away on some grifter that promises to provide a path to making all of your dystopian dreams come true?  Would require an in depth cost-benefit analysis...which would burn the funding required to purchase said initial lottery ticket.  Damn, winning is hard!!!!

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On 8/12/2022 at 7:53 PM, FresnoFacts said:

That can happen in California also.

San Luis Obispo County just finished a hand recount in a County Supervisor race which was requested by a voter. The person making that request also had to cover the recount cost.

The hand recount there matched the machine count exactly.

https://www.sanluisobispo.com/news/politics-government/election/article264429751.html

That’s amazing. And stupid. 

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On 8/12/2022 at 8:06 PM, SJSUMFA2013 said:

That’s amazing. And stupid. 

Yep and also can be scary if you think about today's political climate.

I would expect a candidate or political party to have the right to challenge an election count result.

But for any person to do it who can come up with the money to cover the cost? In theory sounds nice but in practice it opens up the possibility for anyone to delay certification of any election by weeks or more.

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