Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Billings

Why a liberal arts education is still valuable

Recommended Posts

On 7/28/2022 at 11:49 AM, bornontheblue said:

I am familiar enough with what is going on to know that businesses are not lining up to hire English/Communication majors. Sure there are careers out there but the student has to put some work into it to find it , and usually start from a lower position and work their way into it. 

When I graduated college I didn't have to look for a decent level entry job. They all came looking for us in the Beta Alpha Psi program. Same thing with engineers, or nurses, or chemistry majors the list goes on.

OK? Except this wasn't even the case 10 years ago. When I graduated in 2010, I had to go out and look for jobs. I applied to, I think, 20 jobs and grad school as a safety and interviewed for 3, got none. So.... grad school. After grad school, I applied to over 100 jobs. I had to seek them all out. I had 4 interviews and 2 job offers. My wife graduated with a degree in chemistry, and she had a part time job in Laramie in a lab. She had to seek a job and somehow lucked into a job at one of two chemistry labs in Casper. Low pay and a less technical position than she had been working at her part time job. Got a raise exactly once in three years, for a dollar an hour. 

Is that the case today? No. But it isn't the case for any position, and the growth of entry level jobs for graphic designers, coms, content creators has exploded. 

On 7/28/2022 at 11:49 AM, bornontheblue said:

 

Our firm usually hires a few first year staff at the start of every tax season and we are definitely competing against other firms for accounting graduates and it is getting harder.  you don't see that level of competition for History, English, or Communication graduates. 

so you are comparing how well history, english, and communication graduates do... compared to accounting students.... for an accounting firm?

On 7/28/2022 at 11:49 AM, bornontheblue said:

Nothing at all wrong with a liberal arts degree but if you going into a liberal arts program and expect the same initial career outlook as a an engineering major, or a finance major you are fooling yourself. 

I think you are fooling yourself. 

You also still don't seem to know what a liberal arts program is. 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/28/2022 at 11:11 AM, happycamper said:

all education cost is crazy high :shrug: 

for that matter, i will take the position that unless it involves liberal arts skills, it isn't an education. it's jobs training. if you want your workers to be entrepreneurs, or managers, legislators, community leaders, or even to start their own firm or rise high in a larger company, then you need liberal arts skills heavily seasoned in with even the most technical of courses. otherwise, you have created a set of wonks with a low ceiling who can only grind for the elite who went to a higher tier of education. 

i guess tradesmen have never been part of the ruling elite for a reason, eh?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

English major here. Make 6 figures. The lies about English, history, womens studies, etc. are all politically motivated. Students need to pursue what they’re passionate about - be it accounting or ethnic studies or history or whatever. Some people would rather they focus only on learning a single marketable skill so that they can be better exploited. Can’t do that if they learn tn think critically. The discussion re: roi is one we shouldn’t even be having because college should free or as close to free as we can make it. If we were an actually civilized country there would be no student loan crisis, no tuition hikes, no exploitative slave-wage entry level jobs for 20-somethings, and certainly no old men who are closer to death than they are college dictating what young people do with their lives. FOH with that bullshit. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/28/2022 at 8:49 AM, bornontheblue said:

I am familiar enough with what is going on to know that businesses are not lining up to hire English/Communication majors. Sure there are careers out there but the student has to put some work into it to find it , and usually start from a lower position and work their way into it. 

When I graduated college I didn't have to look for a decent level entry job. They all came looking for us in the Beta Alpha Psi program. Same thing with engineers, or nurses, or chemistry majors the list goes on. 

Our firm usually hires a few first year staff at the start of every tax season and we are definitely competing against other firms for accounting graduates and it is getting harder.  you don't see that level of competition for History, English, or Communication graduates. 

Nothing at all wrong with a liberal arts degree but if you going into a liberal arts program and expect the same initial career outlook as a an engineering major, or a finance major you are fooling yourself. 

"Businesses" are lining up for them, you're just not seeing the whole picture. The number of headhunters that reach out to me these days is stunning (two just yesterday). At the entry level you are probably right, I confess. Those professions definitely have a higher floor, because of the rigor of the academics and the certification process. But over the long term, English/communications have a pretty high ceiling. (Just ask my CPA buddy who used to make three times more than me). The demand for content is off the charts, and I bet those businesses that aren't looking to hire English majors are paying a hefty rate to contract that kind of work to a rapidly growing advertising and PR agency. And I guarantee you that agency is lining up for those communication majors. 

Anyways, the perception of some that a liberal arts education is just some unmarketable degree like women's studies isn't accurate. The market for communications pros is hot, and a complete 180 from when I graduated in the late 90s.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/28/2022 at 12:04 PM, AndroidAggie said:

i guess tradesmen have never been part of the ruling elite for a reason, eh?

i mean, that isn't totally true. there were some cities in the hanseatic league that were ruled by guilds. 

but even that extends to the point above. the guilds themselves were the sources of education for the tradesmen, and political and administrative education came in the guild.

and also, yeah, tradesmen generally aren't part of the ruling elite because... they spend most of their time doing the trade :shrug: the ruling elite tends to come from people who have free time and free income to invest into going in to politics. it requires both. 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/28/2022 at 12:10 PM, happycamper said:

i mean, that isn't totally true. there were some cities in the hanseatic league that were ruled by guilds. 

but even that extends to the point above. the guilds themselves were the sources of education for the tradesmen, and political and administrative education came in the guild.

and also, yeah, tradesmen generally aren't part of the ruling elite because... they spend most of their time doing the trade :shrug: the ruling elite tends to come from people who have free time and free income to invest into going in to politics. it requires both. 

tradesmen and guilds are typically subservient - or participators in - the ruling classes.  strong power bases throughout history have come through smart political maneuvering and/or smart militaristic maneuvering.  napoleon had both.  i'm sure there are a fair amount of counter examples throughout time where guilds ran the show, but imo it bears out as being counterexamples in a body of evidence rather than counterfactuals in a rigorous proof.

between the domains of "knowing how to make things" and "knowing how to think critically and assess ideas", i think the latter will produce more effective (if unethical) leaders.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/28/2022 at 9:15 AM, AndroidAggie said:

tradesmen and guilds are typically subservient - or participators in - the ruling classes.  strong power bases throughout history have come through smart political maneuvering and/or smart militaristic maneuvering.  napoleon had both.  i'm sure there are a fair amount of counter examples throughout time where guilds ran the show, but imo it bears out as being counterexamples in a body of evidence rather than counterfactuals in a rigorous proof.

between the domains of "knowing how to make things" and "knowing how to think critically and assess ideas", i think the latter will produce more effective (if unethical) leaders.

Just to be clear that I do not think you are intending to argue this, but "knowing how to make things" does not result in higher ethics than "knowing how to think critically and assess ideas." Ethics and moral code are on the periphery of most studies (professional and liberal arts alike). While all professionals have a code of ethics that they have to swear to, as do most jobs anywhere. They are just called something different.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/28/2022 at 12:27 PM, SharkTanked said:

Just to be clear that I do not think you are intending to argue this, but "knowing how to make things" does not result in higher ethics than "knowing how to think critically and assess ideas." Ethics and moral code are on the periphery of most studies (professional and liberal arts alike). While all professionals have a code of ethics that they have to swear to, as do most jobs anywhere. They are just called something different.

nope - not arguing that.  knowing how to think critically and assess ideas - the crux of a liberal arts education - equips one with the tools and people skills necessary to rule and run a society and does so better than learning technical the skill or the trade.  ethics for how to run the society justly are another concern lol.  the liberal arts education is by no means an education that the tools would be put to proper use, but imo just a better way to arrive at those tools than the technical education.

and of course, some people naturally intuit how to deal with people.  the protracted education tends to cultivate a patience and discipline the naturally gifted wouldn't have on their own, typically.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/28/2022 at 12:15 PM, AndroidAggie said:

tradesmen and guilds are typically subservient - or participators in - the ruling classes.  strong power bases throughout history have come through smart political maneuvering and/or smart militaristic maneuvering.  napoleon had both.  i'm sure there are a fair amount of counter examples throughout time where guilds ran the show, but imo it bears out as being counterexamples in a body of evidence rather than counterfactuals in a rigorous proof.

between the domains of "knowing how to make things" and "knowing how to think critically and assess ideas", i think the latter will produce more effective (if unethical) leaders.

I brought up the guilds because they are somewhat unique and built themselves into powers in a way that is not something we can replicate today. they extracted labor from their masses and winnowed out the most skilled, but also the most adept at internal politics. they had wealth and power and used that wealth to entrench political power while being an indispensible part of the economy in a time without trademarks or patents or copyrights. 

The way that guilds took power shows how difficult it is for tradespeople to be the ruling class, not a counter example of how they could be a ruling class. 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/28/2022 at 12:27 PM, SharkTanked said:

Just to be clear that I do not think you are intending to argue this, but "knowing how to make things" does not result in higher ethics than "knowing how to think critically and assess ideas." Ethics and moral code are on the periphery of most studies (professional and liberal arts alike). While all professionals have a code of ethics that they have to swear to, as do most jobs anywhere. They are just called something different.

edit to add: my apologies for imprecise language.  when i said "if unethical" i meant "although there's no guarantee of ethics"

it made sense as i typed it but less so now upon revisiting. forgive me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/28/2022 at 9:38 AM, AndroidAggie said:

edit to add: my apologies for imprecise language.  when i said "if unethical" i meant "although there's no guarantee of ethics"

it made sense as i typed it but less so now upon revisiting. forgive me.

No worries, I thought that was what you were getting at. Just thought it was worth clarifying.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Once I was waitin'
In fortune and fame
Everything that I dreamed for
To get a start in life's game
Then suddenly it happened
I lost every dime
But I'm richer by far
With a satisfied mind
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/28/2022 at 8:00 AM, bornontheblue said:

Depends on what your educational goals are. If your goal is to pursue your educational passion then a liberal arts degree is worth the cost, maybe st a state school if you do not have scholarships.  If your goal is career skills that are in demand then a liberal arts degree is not a good path. I have never been anywhere where the HR department was struggling to find oppressed women's studies majors. I have been places where if a software engineer accepted a very generous job offer it was a total team victory for the HR department

When I graduated with my accounting degree I didn't have to look for a job , the jobs came looking for me. You don't see that in the history department. 

You and I might disagree on a lot of political stuff but you've definitely proved your worth with regard to writing. A friend of mine who is a CPA is also very adept at writing so from that I conclude that major requires that one actually take some liberal arts classes and submit some term papers. However, there appear to be many people in IT who can't write their way out of a paper bag. My suspicion is they've simply always relied on software to correct misspellings and grammatical errors. That's probably fine when one's job is essentially coding, systems administration and the like. However, at a certain level of management, it becomes essential that people can express themselves in a reasonably clear and adroit manner. Those in upper management who are incapable of doing so are an embarrassment to their employer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/28/2022 at 11:58 AM, 818SUDSFan said:

You and I might disagree on a lot of political stuff but you've definitely proved your worth with regard to writing. A friend of mine who is a CPA is also very adept at writing so from that I conclude that major requires that one actually take some liberal arts classes and submit some term papers. However, there appear to be many people in IT who can't write their way out of a paper bag. My suspicion is they've simply always relied on software to correct misspellings and grammatical errors. That's probably fine when one's job is essentially coding, systems administration and the like. However, at a certain level of management, it becomes essential that people can express themselves in a reasonably clear and adroit manner. Those in upper management who are incapable of doing so are an embarrassment to their employer.

Sometimes I think my writing skills have deteriorated because so much of the writing I do in my career is very technical, and efficiency, and succinctness is highly valued. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/28/2022 at 11:05 AM, bornontheblue said:

Sometimes I think my writing skills have deteriorated because so much of the writing I do in my career is very technical, and efficiency, and succinctness is highly valued. 

I'll buy that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/28/2022 at 11:05 AM, bornontheblue said:

Sometimes I think my writing skills have deteriorated because so much of the writing I do in my career is very technical, and efficiency, and succinctness is highly valued. 

no, that means your skills have improved...

not naming names but several of our more esteemed colleagues could take a lesson :ph34r: 

Link to comment
Share on other sites



  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.



×
×
  • Create New...