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USC and UCLA are leaving the Pac-12

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On 8/7/2022 at 10:41 AM, Aztec1984 said:

Perhaps it is my bias growing up in a Navy town, but I don't think the AFA has nearly the "national brand" of Navy and West Point. Not meant to be a diss on AFA. I root for them quite a bit given they are committed to serving after graduation.

Agree, nowhere near the same national brand, but still the bulk of their fans are of a national nature.  They don't carry the regional market at all.

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On 8/7/2022 at 8:22 AM, renoskier said:

it might be the other way around, maybe good football is a detriment to becoming a top "university"

look at the top 10-20 academic institutions in the country, only Stanford has a "big time" football program :shrug:

I was curious regarding the socio economic status of the average student with regards to academic prestige of the institution. U of Alabama actually has a relatively high median family income of 130k versus an AAU school such as Utah with a strong economy and strong football whose median incomes in at a little over 100k. Disproves my theory. As a side note, when looking at schools for my son, as a national merit scholar, U of Alabama offers those prospective students roughly 6 years of free education, summer resaerch stipend and free study abroad. And a Mac computer. Not as good as an NIL deal but impressive nonetheless. Oklahoma offered almost as much. It shows that football factories are interested in excelling in academics as well. Ultimately he chose USC, a top 20 academic school, and climbing, by many surveys because they gave 50 percent off tuition. 

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On 8/7/2022 at 10:23 AM, RebelAlliance said:

No idea.  I just compared SAT scores to acceptance rates.  GPA is a pretty loose metric in these days of grade inflation.  I think most competitive colleges weight test scores, class rank and reputation of the high school much higher.  

 

UC's and CSU's haven't been requiring test scores the last couple of years so how are you using SAT scores to determine that one school's freshman class is "better" than the other?

UC's and CSU's don't consider test scores or class rank at all.  Per filings to the federal government, in terms of academic factors for admissions UC's and CSU's consider the "rigor of secondary school record", academic GPA, and the application essay (UC's only) as "very important" factors.  Class rank, standardized test scores, and recommendations are "not considered".

I agree there is grade inflation everywhere but that gets washed out when comparing thousands of GPA's for enrolled freshman at one school versus another school.  Plus all we have to go on is average GPA's of the classes.

So what was the average HS GPA of the enrolled freshman class for 2021-22 at SDSU and UCSC?  

 

 

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On 8/7/2022 at 9:14 AM, RebelAlliance said:

 

SDSU proponents love to point out that acceptance rate, but you need to put it in context.

SDSU benefits from the same dynamic within the CSU system as Berkeley and UCLA do within the UC system.  The common application allows thousand and thousands of students who are likely bound for Fullerton or Sac State to easily take a chance and check the box for the app to go to SDSU.  You get a ton of rejected applicants that don't do anything to actually move the metrics of the freshman class that ends up enrolling.  UC Santa Cruz has an acceptance rate twice that of SDSU yet enrolls a much better freshman class.

Same thing happens in the UC system where thousands of kids likely bound for Santa Cruz or Davis go ahead and check that Berkeley box despite knowing it's a huge longshot.  Berkeley has an acceptance rate half that of Michigan, yet enrolls a freshman class no better from a stats standpoint.  

Not sure what point you are trying to make, comparing SDSU with a UC school? One would expect that UC schools will get better freshmen than a CSU school. SDSU does pretty well attracting a very good freshman class - on par with UC Merced and UC Riverside. Still SDSU is the most applied school for freshman in the CSU system. Many UC applicants have SDSU as their primary backup option. Again, when it comes to schools in the CSU system, SDSU is well above the rest of the system, and that is all we are claiming.

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On 8/7/2022 at 10:10 AM, Someone Else said:

The number of applicants at Berkley, UCLA, SDSU etc... allows these schools to be more selective, thus raising the level of student they accept.  That is why the acceptance rate being lower at those universities is something that is pointed out.

Obviously, the acceptance rate isn't the only thing that determines how academically respected a university is but it is a factor.  (Meaning, just because SDSU has a lowish acceptance rate no one is going to mistake SDSU for Stanford.)

Back when I was at SDSU, the SDSU pre-med program had a higher rate of acceptance into medical school than Stanford. To get into SDSU's med program you had to go through an interview process, the same as what you would have to go through with a Med school.

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On 8/7/2022 at 10:32 AM, Headbutt said:

Agree, nowhere near the same national brand, but still the bulk of their fans are of a national nature.  They don't carry the regional market at all.

I agree. Just not sure enough to move the market for the PAC, even with Gonzaga as a partner.

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On 8/7/2022 at 1:58 PM, Fowl said:

UC's and CSU's haven't been requiring test scores the last couple of years so how are you using SAT scores to determine that one school's freshman class is "better" than the other?

UC's and CSU's don't consider test scores or class rank at all.  Per filings to the federal government, in terms of academic factors for admissions UC's and CSU's consider the "rigor of secondary school record", academic GPA, and the application essay (UC's only) as "very important" factors.  Class rank, standardized test scores, and recommendations are "not considered".

I agree there is grade inflation everywhere but that gets washed out when comparing thousands of GPA's for enrolled freshman at one school versus another school.  Plus all we have to go on is average GPA's of the classes.

So what was the average HS GPA of the enrolled freshman class for 2021-22 at SDSU and UCSC?  

 

 

 

Are these permanent changes or just a temporary post-COVID change?

Also, since when doesn't class rank matter.  The whole system was based on guaranteed admission to a UC if in the top 12% and a CSU if in the top 25%. 

I used a website called Niche, and it does look like SDSU has a slight edge in gpa over Santa Cruz (3.7 to 3.6), yet Santa Cruz  has an almost 100 point edge over SDSU in test scores, so they're still being reported.  So call them even in admissions standards, which still proves my point that the low acceptance rate is a function of the CSU application system rather than really pulling in high UC (Santa Cruz is probably bottom third) quality freshman classes.  And as I've repeatedly said, what matters is who ends up on campus in the Fall.  That's what determines how competitive classrooms are, how driven and disciplined the student are and at what level subject matter can be taught.  Do you think an introductory physics class is the same (and taught in the same way) at MIT as one at Boise?

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On 8/7/2022 at 2:26 PM, Aztec1984 said:

Not sure what point you are trying to make, comparing SDSU with a UC school? One would expect that UC schools will get better freshmen than a CSU school. SDSU does pretty well attracting a very good freshman class - on par with UC Merced and UC Riverside. Still SDSU is the most applied school for freshman in the CSU system. Many UC applicants have SDSU as their primary backup option. Again, when it comes to schools in the CSU system, SDSU is well above the rest of the system, and that is all we are claiming.

Definitely way better than Merced, somewhat better than Riverside and equal to Santa Cruz.  My point was never to say that SDSU isn't competitive to get into or that it doesn't attract solid freshman classes.  Just to say that--given the peculiarities of the CSU and UC--systems that acceptance rate isn't the be all and end all.

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On 8/7/2022 at 1:12 PM, NMpackalum said:

I was curious regarding the socio economic status of the average student with regards to academic prestige of the institution. U of Alabama actually has a relatively high median family income of 130k versus an AAU school such as Utah with a strong economy and strong football whose median incomes in at a little over 100k. Disproves my theory. As a side note, when looking at schools for my son, as a national merit scholar, U of Alabama offers those prospective students roughly 6 years of free education, summer resaerch stipend and free study abroad. And a Mac computer. Not as good as an NIL deal but impressive nonetheless. Oklahoma offered almost as much. It shows that football factories are interested in excelling in academics as well. Ultimately he chose USC, a top 20 academic school, and climbing, by many surveys because they gave 50 percent off tuition. 

Somewhat dated, but this was a pretty extensive look at it.  It shows that when people knock Santa Clara as a safety school for rich kids, they're not wrong about it.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/18/upshot/some-colleges-have-more-students-from-the-top-1-percent-than-the-bottom-60.html

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On 8/7/2022 at 1:32 PM, Aztec1984 said:

I agree. Just not sure enough to move the market for the PAC, even with Gonzaga as a partner.

AFA is not a candidate for the PAC.  If for no other reason, they already turned down the Big 12 due to not wanting to have to make the investment to elevate their olympic sports, and not wanting to subject said athletes to the grind required at that level.  It's not their mission.  They also don't bring a market, don't do any post-graduate research, and politically don't fit in (which seems to matter to the PAC).

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On 8/7/2022 at 9:14 AM, RebelAlliance said:

SDSU proponents love to point out that acceptance rate, but you need to put it in context.

SDSU benefits from the same dynamic within the CSU system as Berkeley and UCLA do within the UC system.  The common application allows thousand and thousands of students who are likely bound for Fullerton or Sac State to easily take a chance and check the box for the app to go to SDSU.  You get a ton of rejected applicants that don't do anything to actually move the metrics of the freshman class that ends up enrolling.  UC Santa Cruz has an acceptance rate twice that of SDSU yet enrolls a much better freshman class.

Same thing happens in the UC system where thousands of kids likely bound for Santa Cruz or Davis go ahead and check that Berkeley box despite knowing it's a huge longshot.  Berkeley has an acceptance rate half that of Michigan, yet enrolls a freshman class no better from a stats standpoint.  

Better? Sure? But MUCH better? Having just checked UCSC's most recent SAT acceptance score range was 1200-1450. SDSU's was 1100-1320. Maybe that qualifies as much better but by who's definition?

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On 8/7/2022 at 2:49 PM, 818SUDSFan said:

Better? Sure? But MUCH better? Having just checked UCSC's most recent SAT acceptance score range was 1200-1450. SDSU's was 1100-1320. Maybe that qualifies as much better but by who's definition?

I actually stand corrected on that one.  I might still give Santa Cruz a slight edge (meaning that there might be 10 percent of the SDSU freshman class that wouldn't get into Santa Cruz), but I greatly overstated that.  For all intents and purchases call them equivalent.  

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2 hours ago, RebelAlliance said:

But does it really drive the quality if all you're doing is rejecting several thousand kids who had no shot of getting accepted but the simplicity of a system-wide application made it easy to take a swing for the fences?  Now if you're getting several thousand additional applicants who can get in, then you can start rejecting kids who you might otherwise take.  I don't see that happening though.  

Again, I think it is a metric, but it's not a defining one.  What truly matters is the quality of the freshman class that you enroll, and SDSU enrolls one equal to Riverside.  Yes, that's better than the rest of the CSU system (except SLO), but it's hardly elite, even on a public level. 

I can guarantee you it does drive quality.  You can just look at how average GPA and SAT scores have risen over the last 30 years.  As I said, SDSU isn't Stanford but it's much more difficult to get into now than it was in the past.  At no point, did I say it was elite. 

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On 8/7/2022 at 12:32 PM, RebelAlliance said:

 

Are these permanent changes or just a temporary post-COVID change?

Also, since when doesn't class rank matter.  The whole system was based on guaranteed admission to a UC if in the top 12% and a CSU if in the top 25%. 

I used a website called Niche, and it does look like SDSU has a slight edge in gpa over Santa Cruz (3.7 to 3.6), yet Santa Cruz  has an almost 100 point edge over SDSU in test scores, so they're still being reported.  So call them even in admissions standards, which still proves my point that the low acceptance rate is a function of the CSU application system rather than really pulling in high UC (Santa Cruz is probably bottom third) quality freshman classes.  And as I've repeatedly said, what matters is who ends up on campus in the Fall.  That's what determines how competitive classrooms are, how driven and disciplined the student are and at what level subject matter can be taught.  Do you think an introductory physics class is the same (and taught in the same way) at MIT as one at Boise?

Having been in both the UC system and the CSU system I think the biggest difference is that you are more likely to have an actual professor teach an undergraduate class in the CSU system than in a UC school. When I was in the UC system the professor would come in, if he had time, and draw a formula on the board. He'd leave and we were limited to asking his Master's candidate for answers to questions we weren't sure of. In the UC system we were expected to "self learn." In the UC system you are expected to get through on your own until, at least, your junior year. Then you might actually see a full professor that actually gave a shit that you are there.

 

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On 8/7/2022 at 12:37 PM, Headbutt said:

AFA is not a candidate for the PAC.  If for no other reason, they already turned down the Big 12 due to not wanting to have to make the investment to elevate their olympic sports, and not wanting to subject said athletes to the grind required at that level.  It's not their mission.  They also don't bring a market, don't do any post-graduate research, and politically don't fit in (which seems to matter to the PAC).

I've only looked at AFA as a football only applicant with Gonzaga. That would be second to a Hawaii/Gonzaga pairing. I think both are more than "iffy."

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On 8/7/2022 at 12:32 PM, RebelAlliance said:

 

Are these permanent changes or just a temporary post-COVID change?

Also, since when doesn't class rank matter.  The whole system was based on guaranteed admission to a UC if in the top 12% and a CSU if in the top 25%. 

I used a website called Niche, and it does look like SDSU has a slight edge in gpa over Santa Cruz (3.7 to 3.6), yet Santa Cruz  has an almost 100 point edge over SDSU in test scores, so they're still being reported.  So call them even in admissions standards, which still proves my point that the low acceptance rate is a function of the CSU application system rather than really pulling in high UC (Santa Cruz is probably bottom third) quality freshman classes.  And as I've repeatedly said, what matters is who ends up on campus in the Fall.  That's what determines how competitive classrooms are, how driven and disciplined the student are and at what level subject matter can be taught.  Do you think an introductory physics class is the same (and taught in the same way) at MIT as one at Boise?

Unfortunately the no test thing is permanent and has started to take root across the country.  For this year most non-UC/CSU schools are "test optional" so naturally only the kids with SAT's > 1400+ are submitting them.  Thus test scores reported by schools are going to be massively inflated.  Most kids are still taking them though for now.  

Both the UC's and CSU's have reported to the federal government that they do not consider class rank.  It looks like UCSC used to report to the feds that class rank was "important" and then during the 2015/16 year they began reporting it as "not considered".  

I think the data you are using from that website is old.  For the 2021/22 common data set, SDSU reported to the feds an average unweighted GPA for enrolled freshman of 3.82 and UCSC was 3.63.  For the prior year the average GPA for SDSU was 3.81 and for UCSC was 3.51.  These are unweighted GPA's and the feds don't make schools report the weighted GPA's so you have to take those self-reported weighted GPA's with some skepticism because obviously schools are incented to inflate.  UCSC did recently publicly report that for their incoming freshman class the average weighted GPA was 4.08.  SDSU reported in a letter to incoming freshman that their weighted GPA for the freshman class was 4.10.

UCSC did not report any test scores for 2021/22 freshman class as they did not accept them and SDSU reported that just 13% of enrolled freshman submitted test scores.  In the 2020/21 year it was test optional and both schools reported that about 85% of enrolled freshmen submitted test scores.  For the middle 50% UCSC's incoming freshman SAT scores were 30 points higher than SDSU's.

And to your point about what matters is who ends up on campus in the fall, I agree and every piece of data that I have provided is for ENROLLED freshmen.  So the enrolled frosh class this past year at SDSU was basically academically equivalent to UCSC.  

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On 8/6/2022 at 9:18 PM, Wyobraska said:

I'd say CU has the biggest contingent of fans and you see more of their gear and then CSU.  Wyoming after that.  I rarely see AF stuff.  

My office is in Denver so I am obviously there a lot. I see just as much, if not more, Wyoming gear than CU. I rarely see any CSU gear unless I'm in Fort Collins. 

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On 8/7/2022 at 7:22 AM, renoskier said:

it might be the other way around, maybe good football is a detriment to becoming a top "university"

look at the top 10-20 academic institutions in the country, only Stanford has a "big time" football program :shrug:

 

Notre Dame is definitely "big time" & UCLA has been in the recent past.

 

I guess it depends on how you define "...'big time' football program."

#9t - Duke

#9t - Northwestern

#14 - Vandy

#19 - Notre Dame

#20 - UCLA

#22 - Cal

 

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities

 

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On 8/7/2022 at 3:07 PM, 406bleedsblue said:

My office is in Denver so I am obviously there a lot. I see just as much, if not more, Wyoming gear than CU. I rarely see any CSU gear unless I'm in Fort Collins. 

I see CSU stuff around Denver but not like CU.  I do see some Wyoming stuff as well.  I tend to be out in the burbs these days though, so that might have more to do with it.  At stores I always see CSU stuff as well, not so much for Wyoming unless it is a place like Dicks that is more sports oriented.  

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On 8/7/2022 at 10:23 AM, RebelAlliance said:

No idea.  I just compared SAT scores to acceptance rates.  GPA is a pretty loose metric in these days of grade inflation.  I think most competitive colleges weight test scores, class rank and reputation of the high school much higher.  

 

"In March 2022, the CSU Board of Trustees approved the removal of the SAT and ACT standardized tests from undergraduate admissions processes."

https://www.calstate.edu/csu-system/news/Pages/Explained-Admissions-Without-the-SAT-or-ACT.aspx

 

"In May 2020, the University of California Board of Regents voted unanimously to stop requiring the ACT and SAT as part of admissions applications."

https://blog.prepscholar.com/university-of-california-schools-no-sat-act-score-requirement

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