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USC and UCLA are leaving the Pac-12

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On 8/6/2022 at 6:45 PM, Aztec1984 said:

For CSU add, the PAC will not add CSU unless U of Colorado leaves.

No question.  CU doesn't deliver the Denver market and CSU doesn't deliver the Denver market.  We split the leftovers from the pro market.  There is zero added revenue from adding another team in that market.  OTOH, it's a big mistake not to be in that market.  If they lose CU (they won't), they almost have to add CSU.  AFA won't cut it.

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On 8/6/2022 at 6:56 PM, Headbutt said:

No question.  CU doesn't deliver the Denver market and CSU doesn't deliver the Denver market.  We split the leftovers from the pro market.  There is zero added revenue from adding another team in that market.  OTOH, it's a big mistake not to be in that market.  If they lose CU (they won't), they almost have to add CSU.  AFA won't cut it.

The Denver market imo, is pretty much split between CSU, CU, AF and really, probably Wyoming. As you stated, definitely a pro market first. 

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"Why isn't Alabama the equal of even the lower tier B1G schools?  Why do UC campuses like San Diego, Irvine and Davis blow Oklahoma out of the water academically?"

One of the major factors is location and the wealth in a location. University of Washington gets 7 times the annual giving than does Washington State.  Washington is in a large wealthy city. Washington State is some where. UAB has annual giving of  $90 million . There is no Giving entry for University of Alabama Tuscaloosa in TARU.

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On 8/6/2022 at 9:00 PM, wyo 1 said:

The Denver market imo, is pretty much split between CSU, CU, AF and really, probably Wyoming. As you stated, definitely a pro market first. 

I'd say CU has the biggest contingent of fans and you see more of their gear and then CSU.  Wyoming after that.  I rarely see AF stuff.  

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On 8/6/2022 at 8:15 PM, since1670 said:

"Why isn't Alabama the equal of even the lower tier B1G schools?  Why do UC campuses like San Diego, Irvine and Davis blow Oklahoma out of the water academically?"

One of the major factors is location and the wealth in a location. University of Washington gets 7 times the annual giving than does Washington State.  Washington is in a large wealthy city. Washington State is some where. UAB has annual giving of  $90 million . There is no Giving entry for University of Alabama Tuscaloosa in TARU.

And the state of Alabama punches above its weight considering it’s population.

 

Alabama, Auburn, and UAB are highly ranked considering the state has less than five million people.

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On 8/6/2022 at 9:18 PM, Wyobraska said:

I'd say CU has the biggest contingent of fans and you see more of their gear and then CSU.  Wyoming after that.  I rarely see AF stuff.  

AFA has their own DMA and is more of a national brand than a regional brand.  Outside of Colorado Springs, they really don't have much of a following in CO.  Wyoming definitely represents in Denver.  CU has a ton of representation among Denver media personalities, so they get pushed pretty hard.  The average fan on the street probably couldn't give a damn about the local teams but those that do are split pretty evenly between CU and CSU, with (as I said) a large Wyo contingent thrown in there.

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On 8/6/2022 at 10:35 PM, bigd said:

And the state of Alabama punches above its weight considering it’s population.

 

Alabama, Auburn, and UAB are highly ranked considering the state has less than five million people.

That's like saying a kid is highly intelligent.......on the short bus.  It still doesn't show any causality whatsoever between strong football programs and strong academic reputation.  Wisconsin only has 6 million, so I don't think that's a fundamental gap.  Wisconsin has been on the short list of best public universities for decades regardless of whether they're good or bad at football.  They're on that list because they invested directly in academics.

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On 8/7/2022 at 7:05 AM, RebelAlliance said:

That's like saying a kid is highly intelligent.......on the short bus.  It still doesn't show any causality whatsoever between strong football programs and strong academic reputation.  Wisconsin only has 6 million, so I don't think that's a fundamental gap.  Wisconsin has been on the short list of best public universities for decades regardless of whether they're good or bad at football.  They're on that list because they invested directly in academics.

it might be the other way around, maybe good football is a detriment to becoming a top "university"

look at the top 10-20 academic institutions in the country, only Stanford has a "big time" football program :shrug:

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On 8/7/2022 at 9:22 AM, renoskier said:

it might be the other way around, maybe good football is a detriment to becoming a top "university"

look at the top 10-20 academic institutions in the country, only Stanford has a "big time" football program :shrug:

Possibly.  Dropping big time football certainly didn't hold back the University of Chicago.  If Cal ends up wandering in the wilderness athletically, I doubt it will harm them at all academically.  

Looking at the best public universities (PAGE 28), which is what we're pretty much talking about, almost all of them outside the FCS UC campuses are P5 schools with varying degrees of success in football and/or basketball.  I'd argue that's more a function of being the flagship universities in states that made higher education a priority, and the athletic stature flowed from that....not the other way around. 

I'm not anti-athletics.  A university can invest in both.  I just reject the argument used to justify bloated athletic budgets that somehow those bloated budgets are necessary to move the university forward academically. 

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Most SEC schools have really high admission rates. Most have to market to out of state students since the school districts in those states are so bad most can’t get into these universities from a high School (Mississippi, Arkansas, Alabama, Tennessee and now Florida). So Football is the draw especially in areas where college football is king.
 

Teams that are in the bottom rankings of SEC football don’t spend all their contractual $’s because they know if they do they still can’t compete with the top tier teams. Most of these schools are more prestigious schools like Vanderbilt

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On 8/7/2022 at 10:52 AM, OAK Aztec said:

Most SEC schools have really high admission rates. Most have to market to out of state students since the school districts in those states are so bad most can’t get into these universities from a high School (Mississippi, Arkansas, Alabama, Tennessee and now Florida). So Football is the draw especially in areas where college football is king.
 

Teams that are in the bottom rankings of SEC football don’t spend all their contractual $’s because they know if they do they still can’t compete with the top tier teams. Most of these schools are more prestigious schools like Vanderbilt

It's actually hard to get into University of Florida in state not to mention out of state. Them and Georgia have a great scholarship program that they pull most of the high academic kids. Florida is ranked the 6th best public university in the country. 

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On 8/7/2022 at 9:57 AM, rebelcuff said:

It's actually hard to get into University of Florida in state not to mention out of state. Them and Georgia have a great scholarship program that they pull most of the high academic kids. Florida is ranked the 6th best public university in the country. 

I definitely think that UF and UGA have separated themselves from the SEC norm.  I don't really know the dynamics behind why though: large states with large metro areas and corporate communities certainly helped.  I'd also think that large amounts of transplants from the Northeast and Great Lakes who expected quality public universities also pushed things along.

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On 8/7/2022 at 7:57 AM, rebelcuff said:

It's actually hard to get into University of Florida in state not to mention out of state. Them and Georgia have a great scholarship program that they pull most of the high academic kids. Florida is ranked the 6th best public university in the country. 

University of Florida is a good school but going forward they will have to rely on out of state students to make up their admissions class. Florida public school systems are failing and they are 9K teachers short with school starting this month. 

By comparison San Diego State’s acceptance rate is similar to Florida’s in the low 30% range. Compare that to University of California Berkeley at 17% and Stanford’s at 5%. 

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On 8/7/2022 at 10:27 AM, OAK Aztec said:

University of Florida is a good school but going forward they will have to rely on out of state students to make up their admissions class. Florida public school systems are failing and they are 9K teachers short with school starting this month. 

By comparison San Diego State’s acceptance rate is similar to Florida’s in the low 30% range. Compare that to University of California Berkeley at 17% and Stanford’s at 5%. 

 

SDSU proponents love to point out that acceptance rate, but you need to put it in context.

SDSU benefits from the same dynamic within the CSU system as Berkeley and UCLA do within the UC system.  The common application allows thousand and thousands of students who are likely bound for Fullerton or Sac State to easily take a chance and check the box for the app to go to SDSU.  You get a ton of rejected applicants that don't do anything to actually move the metrics of the freshman class that ends up enrolling.  UC Santa Cruz has an acceptance rate twice that of SDSU yet enrolls a much better freshman class.

Same thing happens in the UC system where thousands of kids likely bound for Santa Cruz or Davis go ahead and check that Berkeley box despite knowing it's a huge longshot.  Berkeley has an acceptance rate half that of Michigan, yet enrolls a freshman class no better from a stats standpoint.  

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On 8/6/2022 at 8:47 PM, Headbutt said:

AFA has their own DMA and is more of a national brand than a regional brand.  Outside of Colorado Springs, they really don't have much of a following in CO.  Wyoming definitely represents in Denver.  CU has a ton of representation among Denver media personalities, so they get pushed pretty hard.  The average fan on the street probably couldn't give a damn about the local teams but those that do are split pretty evenly between CU and CSU, with (as I said) a large Wyo contingent thrown in there.

Perhaps it is my bias growing up in a Navy town, but I don't think the AFA has nearly the "national brand" of Navy and West Point. Not meant to be a diss on AFA. I root for them quite a bit given they are committed to serving after graduation.

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51 minutes ago, RebelAlliance said:

 

SDSU proponents love to point out that acceptance rate, but you need to put it in context.

SDSU benefits from the same dynamic within the CSU system as Berkeley and UCLA do within the UC system.  The common application allows thousand and thousands of students who are likely bound for Fullerton or Sac State to easily take a chance and check the box for the app to go to SDSU.  You get a ton of rejected applicants that don't do anything to actually move the metrics of the freshman class that ends up enrolling.  UC Santa Cruz has an acceptance rate twice that of SDSU yet enrolls a much better freshman class.

Same thing happens in the UC system where thousands of kids likely bound for Santa Cruz or Davis go ahead and check that Berkeley box despite knowing it's a huge longshot.  Berkeley has an acceptance rate half that of Michigan, yet enrolls a freshman class no better from a stats standpoint.  

The number of applicants at Berkley, UCLA, SDSU etc... allows these schools to be more selective, thus raising the level of student they accept.  That is why the acceptance rate being lower at those universities is something that is pointed out.

Obviously, the acceptance rate isn't the only thing that determines how academically respected a university is but it is a factor.  (Meaning, just because SDSU has a lowish acceptance rate no one is going to mistake SDSU for Stanford.)

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On 8/7/2022 at 10:41 AM, Aztec1984 said:

Perhaps it is my bias growing up in a Navy town, but I don't think the AFA has nearly the "national brand" of Navy and West Point. Not meant to be a diss on AFA. I root for them quite a bit given they are committed to serving after graduation.

I would agree with the National Brand comment 

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On 8/7/2022 at 12:10 PM, Someone Else said:

The number of applicants at Berkley, UCLA, SDSU etc... allows these schools to be more selective, thus raising the level of student they accept.  That is why the acceptance rate being lower at those universities is something that is pointed out.

Obviously, the acceptance rate isn't the only thing that determines how academically respected a university is but it is a factor.  (Meaning, just because SDSU has a lowish acceptance rate no one is going to mistake SDSU for Stanford.)

But does it really drive the quality if all you're doing is rejecting several thousand kids who had no shot of getting accepted but the simplicity of a system-wide application made it easy to take a swing for the fences?  Now if you're getting several thousand additional applicants who can get in, then you can start rejecting kids who you might otherwise take.  I don't see that happening though.  

Again, I think it is a metric, but it's not a defining one.  What truly matters is the quality of the freshman class that you enroll, and SDSU enrolls one equal to Riverside.  Yes, that's better than the rest of the CSU system (except SLO), but it's hardly elite, even on a public level. 

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On 8/7/2022 at 9:14 AM, RebelAlliance said:

 

UC Santa Cruz has an acceptance rate twice that of SDSU yet enrolls a much better freshman class.

 

What is the average GPA of enrolled freshman at both schools?

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On 8/7/2022 at 12:19 PM, Fowl said:

What is the average GPA of enrolled freshman at both schools?

No idea.  I just compared SAT scores to acceptance rates.  GPA is a pretty loose metric in these days of grade inflation.  I think most competitive colleges weight test scores, class rank and reputation of the high school much higher.  

 

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