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Feral cats need to be put down, not fed. A thread.

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On 9/22/2022 at 11:56 PM, CPslograd said:

Causes of Bird Mortality – Sibley Guides

According to this windows kill more birds than cats.  So now, I'm the bad guy.

More science.

untitled (nas-national-prod.s3.amazonaws.com)

"This chart and the following text were prepared in 2003"

The study in the second link seems to align with the numbers I've posted thus far.

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On 9/23/2022 at 12:43 AM, CPslograd said:

Let me try it another another way.

Lots of birds feed on insects.  Farming massively increases the population of insects.  We have to control insect populations in order to feed ourselves.  These controls massively reduce the number of insects.  Which reduces the number of birds that can feed off those insects.

So do we have a number for the amount of birds that are alive because of modern agriculture?  And do we have a solid estimate on the number of birds that don't exist because pesticide use reduces the number of insects?

The damage from agriculture is not insignificant

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/01/220112154933.htm

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/01/220112154933.htm

https://ocm.auburn.edu/newsroom/news_articles/2020/10/141359-miao-bird-study.php

It's just less than the damage from the feral cat population. 

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On 9/23/2022 at 9:04 AM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Comeon, Halfman, you're smarter than this.

This first article is specifically referencing biodiversity being impacted by large versus small farms, not sheer numbers of birds.  The impact of farming in general on bird populations is beyond massive, both for the positive and the negative, depending on species type and other factors.  You can't seriously think feral cats have more impact on birds than agriculture as a whole.

The second article is strictly referencing one type of pesticide and it's impact on bird populations and biodiversity.  It doesn't even attempt to address the issue of insect population that is a result of ag, nor of pesticides impact on those insect populations and its correlation with bird populations and diversity.

 

 

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On 9/23/2022 at 8:59 AM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

"This chart and the following text were prepared in 2003"

The study in the second link seems to align with the numbers I've posted thus far.

FFS.  The second link shows between 100 million and 1 billion range for birds dying by flying into buildings.  That's a pretty healthy spread don't you think?  It's like saying between 240 million and 2.4 billion birds a year are killed by domestic cats.

https://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2013/02/03/170851048/do-we-really-know-that-cats-kill-by-the-billions-not-so-fast

Look, math is math.  I get that.  But the outputs are only as accurate as the inputs.  If you look in that link of bird collision deaths, it shows the actual equations and estimates they use to come up with their numbers.  I don't have any confidence in those inputed numbers, so I have no confidence in the output.  Neither do the authors really, that's they there is a range of 100 million to 1 billion.

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On 9/23/2022 at 7:18 AM, Old_SD_Dude said:

While agriculture would possibly create more food for certain species, the displacement of native habitat by agriculture undoubtedly has a negative effect on avian populations as a whole. Pesticides don’t just reduce insects. Once birds eat the insects pesticides reduce birds. 

It definitely negatively impacts biodiversity amongst birds.  It's not just the pesticides.  If you plant 600 acres of row crops, all the ground birds that used to live there are all gone.  On the other hand, all the orchards give habitat to certain species that wouldn't have much of one in grasslands.

There are so many factors and considerations, I think it's impossible to put some total number of birds that are lost of gained due to agriculture.

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My cat brought in two mouse heads yesterday and just dropped them on the rug.  WTF am I supposed to do with that?

So much better than live mice destroying cupboards and shit.  I only wish my cat could reach the woodpecker that keeps destroying my siding.

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https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/50-billion-total-wild-birds-inhabit-planet-study-estimates-180977753/

Okay, so if there are 50 billion birds on Earth.  and 2.4 billion a year are killed by domestic cats in America.

My math says about 5% of the global population of birds is killed by domestic cats in the USA every single year.  Anyone who thinks that is plausible is welcome to meet me at Best Buy to settle this once and for all.🥷

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On 9/23/2022 at 3:35 PM, CPslograd said:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/50-billion-total-wild-birds-inhabit-planet-study-estimates-180977753/

Okay, so if there are 50 billion birds on Earth.  and 2.4 billion a year are killed by domestic cats in America.

My math says about 5% of the global population of birds is killed by domestic cats in the USA every single year.  Anyone who thinks that is plausible is welcome to meet me at Best Buy to settle this once and for all.🥷

Yeah but bird estimates range to almost 10 times that

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/how-many-birds-are-there-in-the-world-science-estimates#:~:text=New research estimates there are,430 billion birds on Earth.

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On 9/23/2022 at 2:52 PM, CPslograd said:

FFS.  The second link shows between 100 million and 1 billion range for birds dying by flying into buildings.  That's a pretty healthy spread don't you think?  It's like saying between 240 million and 2.4 billion birds a year are killed by domestic cats.

https://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2013/02/03/170851048/do-we-really-know-that-cats-kill-by-the-billions-not-so-fast

Look, math is math.  I get that.  But the outputs are only as accurate as the inputs.  If you look in that link of bird collision deaths, it shows the actual equations and estimates they use to come up with their numbers.  I don't have any confidence in those inputed numbers, so I have no confidence in the output.  Neither do the authors really, that's they there is a range of 100 million to 1 billion.

Except the median number from studies is 2.4 billion birds killed by cats, the median number for collisions if 540 million.  

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On 9/23/2022 at 2:35 PM, CPslograd said:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/50-billion-total-wild-birds-inhabit-planet-study-estimates-180977753/

Okay, so if there are 50 billion birds on Earth.  and 2.4 billion a year are killed by domestic cats in America.

My math says about 5% of the global population of birds is killed by domestic cats in the USA every single year.  Anyone who thinks that is plausible is welcome to meet me at Best Buy to settle this once and for all.🥷

Birds expect to lose many offspring. So maybe the number of birds on earth vs the number of deaths reflects that, instead of say pre modern humans which even in a bad year would only expect to lose ~10% the total population as infants?

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On 9/23/2022 at 2:41 PM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Except the median number from studies is 2.4 billion birds killed by cats, the median number for collisions if 540 million.  

I want to audit a recount. I'll get back to you in 2046.

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On 9/23/2022 at 2:57 PM, happycamper said:

Birds expect to lose many offspring. So maybe the number of birds on earth vs the number of deaths reflects that, instead of say pre modern humans which even in a bad year would only expect to lose ~10% the total population as infants?

I think you're reaching my friend....

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On 9/23/2022 at 2:41 PM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Except the median number from studies is 2.4 billion birds killed by cats, the median number for collisions if 540 million.  

The median.  so you think the number could be higher?  So lets say 3 billion bird KIA's by cats a year.  Concentrated in urban areas in the USA?  There would be bird kill everywhere if it were anything like that.

Can I at least get you to concede that the 2.4 billion number is suspect?

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On 9/23/2022 at 2:39 PM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Well, if there are 430 billion, then maybe the problem is we have too many phucking birds!

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On 9/23/2022 at 4:32 PM, CPslograd said:

The median.  so you think the number could be higher?  So lets say 3 billion bird KIA's by cats a year.  Concentrated in urban areas in the USA?  There would be bird kill everywhere if it were anything like that.

Can I at least get you to concede that the 2.4 billion number is suspect?

The range from all recent studies is 1.4 to 3.6.  I'm certain that is accurate in range and the lowball would still put bird deaths by cat far higher than the high ball of any other cause of death.

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On 9/23/2022 at 2:00 PM, CPslograd said:

It definitely negatively impacts biodiversity amongst birds.  It's not just the pesticides.  If you plant 600 acres of row crops, all the ground birds that used to live there are all gone.  On the other hand, all the orchards give habitat to certain species that wouldn't have much of one in grasslands.

There are so many factors and considerations, I think it's impossible to put some total number of birds that are lost of gained due to agriculture.

I have no basis to argue about total numbers, although I can’t see how they’d be anywhere near natural conditions. No question biodiversity is affected tremendously. A lot of orchards take active steps to keep birds away from their fruit. 

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On 9/23/2022 at 3:52 PM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

The range from all recent studies is 1.4 to 3.6.  I'm certain that is accurate in range and the lowball would still put bird deaths by cat far higher than the high ball of any other cause of death.

That’s a lot of dead birds bro.    Divide that theoretical bird kill number by total number of significant US cites.  Then divide that number by 365.  Then ask yourself how many dead birds you see on your daily walk and think about whether that number is plausible 

There would be birdkill everywhere if that was the case.

Estimates from the Audubon society are that there are three or four billion less birds in USA and Canada than there were 50 years ago, yet this study saiys two and a half billion are killed every single year by cats in the USA.  🤔 
 

I see three airplanes in the sky right now in my backyard. This minute.  Multiply that by total number of houses in the USA.  Then multiply that by  number of minutes in a day. Minus the estimate of planes you can’t see from your backyard.  That equals the total number of planes flying in the USA every day.

that’s about how accurate that silly study is

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