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smltwnrckr

Another Dr. Seuss FAIL

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9 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

 

Ironically - my kids and the kids I teach will know more about the industrial revolution than yours will. But they won't get triggered every time someone points out an objectively true fact about it. That's all.

Are you going to sugarcoat the human atrocities committed during the Industrial Revolution for your privileged kids? I'm going with most likely. You use the word hyperbole but you add a bunch of crap to your thread. Oppenheimer, The Industrial Revolution and whatever crap you can throw in to prove you're not woke are perfect examples. Gotta like the use of triggered over, over, and over again though. Here's a little secret, You're Woke!!   

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2 hours ago, HR_Poke said:

Wouldn't avoiding his invention all together be "Erasing" history?  I think we all get caught up in things meant for kids lacking context simply because we as adults know more.  I mean I don't get bent out of shape when a book my 8 year old daughter got at the library says the world is a sphere.

This book was published in 2015. The Woke crowd was around but not like it is today. So without being an expert on all his books, I'm not sure how this book falls in line with Ted's style and template.

Ted the original author died in 1991. Most of his books were written well before 1980. IMO his life and views politically were about standard for his generation, which was far less sensitive and PC about racial issues. Concerns about Communism and critical of WW2 atrocities a but he was also highly criticized for racism and anit-semtism in cartoons and other writings.

This study in 2019 examined the topic. FWIW but some of the things aren't opinion.

https://sophia.stkate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1050&context=rdyl

Most kids probably view it as a simple kid's book but I'm not surprised when some parent's radar goes off when seeing some of this stuff.

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1 minute ago, AztecAlien said:

Are you going to sugarcoat  the human atrocities committed during the Industrial Revolution for your privileged kids. I'm going with most likely. You use the word hyperbole but you add a bunch of crap to your thread. Oppenheimer, The Industrial Revolution and whatever crap you can throw in to prove you're not woke are perfect examples. Gotta like the use of triggered over, over, and over again though. Here's a little secret, You're Woke!!   

What in God's name are you blabbering about?

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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1 minute ago, utenation said:

This book was written published in 2015. The Woke crowd was around but not like it is today. So without being an expert on all his books, I'm not sure how this book falls in line with Ted's style and template.

Ted the original author died in 1991. Most of his books were written well before 1980. IMO his life and views politically were about standard for his generation, which was far less sensitive and PC about racial issues. Concerns about Communism and critical of WW2 atrocities and also but he was also highly criticized for racism and anit-semtism in cartoons and other writings.

This study in 2019 examined the topic. FWIW but some of the things aren't opinion.

https://sophia.stkate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1050&context=rdyl

Most kids probably view it as a simple kid's book but I'm not surprised when some parent's radar goes off when seeing some of this stuff.

Most of the books written under the publishing brand that are not by him are, frankly, not very good. He had a way with language and ideas that was generationally unique. I think that him and Shel Silverstine are maybe 2 of the 3 best for young children of the last 100 years. 

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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21 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

Why do 8 year olds need to know who Eli Whitney is? Honest question.

Why do 8 year olds need to know who Dr. King is?  Not trolling, but this is what spurred the discussion of slavery, civil rights etc with my daughter.  They were doing a unit on Dr. King and it raised a bunch of questions that really require explaining context that she's not going to understand.  It's just to introduce them to important people that they will remember later on when the get more in depth. 

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1 minute ago, smltwnrckr said:

What in God's name are you blabbering about?

Your continual burble and your f**ked up douchey thread which only purpose is to divide people. Go get another awesome lesson plan for your kids. I am sure they will learn so much from you. What a Joke!!

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6 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

Most of the books written under the publishing brand that are not by him are, frankly, not very good. He had a way with language and ideas that was generationally unique. I think that him and Shel Silverstine are maybe 2 of the 3 best for young children of the last 100 years. 

My parents read me playboy and hustler magazines as a kid, so I'll take your word for it. ;)

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Just now, HR_Poke said:

Why do 8 year olds need to know who Dr. King is?  Not trolling, but this is what spurred the discussion of slavery, civil rights etc with my daughter.  They were doing a unit on Dr. King and it raised a bunch of questions that really require explaining context that she's not going to understand.  It's just to introduce them to important people that they will remember later on when the get more in depth. 

I think 8 year olds need to know who Dr. King is because he was the voice of the non-violent arm of the civil rights movement. He actually offers a pretty good entry level position to discuss civil rights - in the past, people were treated different because of their skin color... then there was a movement to try and fix that. A lot of people were angry and scared, and MLK was a leader who said there is a way to do it without hurting each other. It's why I would much rather have a book about Dr. King for 8 year olds than a book about Malcom X or the Black Panthers. Both are relvaent to the civil rights movement too, but kids can learn about those more complicated aspects of civil rights in time. That is just my personal opinion.

I remember a while back, during the last threat about the Seuss books with the racist pictures, @thelawlorfaithful making a good point about a book he read about Hank Aaron as a young person to think about these issues. And I remember that, because when I was a kid I really gravitated toward the Aaron story as one to think about that time and the problems of race at the time. I think that when you're dealing with little kids, the stories that you choose to tell matter more than the way you choose to tell them. Because, unless you're a lunatic, you're going to tell the stories to young kids pretty much the same way. So there is something at stake when we choose which stories to tell young children about the past or present. 

 

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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3 minutes ago, AztecAlien said:

Your continual burble and your f**ked up douchey thread which only purpose is to divide people. Go get another awesome lesson plan for your kids. I am sure they will learn so much from you. What a Joke!!

How is it f**ked to point out that slavery existed and that the Cotton Gin made it worse? That's literally an objective statement of fact. 

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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11 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

So this now gets into the discussion of how to teach history. 

Some people suggest that learning simply about inventions and memorizing the names of the people given credit for those inventions is a way to... erase certain aspects of history. Those people are not going to be able to suggest that in classrooms in a lot of states soon.

As to your point that we don't need to include the thing that makes the invention relavent... it seems to me that would be like saying the machine gun prolonged WWI but not saying why.  What's the point?

You are talking about a children's book.  A Dr. Seuss one at that.  They probably can barely process the information in that book let alone the socioeconomic ramifications of said inventions.  Seriously, I think you are going way too in the weeds on this.  And, as you are already starting to see in this thread alone, your insistence on this is now bringing those stupid ass buzzwords like "Woke".  Folks will then use examples like this to bolster other dummies to go the other route and it will lead to an even greater resistance to teaching the actual material at the point where students can be critical and digest the information.  In other words, if this were a conversation on a larger platform, it would probably have a worse consequence than a better consequence.  Because, it is a kid's book on inventions.  And there was zero intent that is shown that they are trying to invalidate or erase history, or purposely demean or mock black people.   

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8 minutes ago, East Coast Aztec said:

You are talking about a children's book.  A Dr. Seuss one at that.  They probably can barely process the information in that book let alone the socioeconomic ramifications of said inventions.  Seriously, I think you are going way too in the weeds on this.  And, as you are already starting to see in this thread alone, your insistence on this is now bringing those stupid ass buzzwords like "Woke".  Folks will then use examples like this to bolster other dummies to go the other route and it will lead to an even greater resistance to teaching the actual material at the point where students can be critical and digest the information.  In other words, if this were a conversation on a larger platform, it would probably have a worse consequence than a better consequence.  Because, it is a kid's book on inventions.  And there was zero intent that is shown that they are trying to invalidate or erase history, or purposely demean or mock black people.   

I mean, that's the point though. All I am saying is that this book is an example (one of many, but just one) of why we need to have more conversations about this. Blaming someone like me for the laws being passed in red states to BAN these kinds of conversations seems to be like cutting of your nose to spite your face. 

I mean, you've said you have no problem with the suggestion that they pick a different inventor since Eli's invention has a lot of ... baggage attached to it. I think that would be the most reasonable thing. They don't have the inventor of the birth control pill in the book, either. 

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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13 minutes ago, East Coast Aztec said:

You are talking about a children's book.  A Dr. Seuss one at that.  They probably can barely process the information in that book let alone the socioeconomic ramifications of said inventions.  Seriously, I think you are going way too in the weeds on this.  And, as you are already starting to see in this thread alone, your insistence on this is now bringing those stupid ass buzzwords like "Woke".  Folks will then use examples like this to bolster other dummies to go the other route and it will lead to an even greater resistance to teaching the actual material at the point where students can be critical and digest the information.  In other words, if this were a conversation on a larger platform, it would probably have a worse consequence than a better consequence.  Because, it is a kid's book on inventions.  And there was zero intent that is shown that they are trying to invalidate or erase history, or purposely demean or mock black people.   

Honest question. Would you rather have smltwnrckr teaching his kids and other kids(hypothetically your kids) racism is bad or the other way around? Even if you think he's being extreme about this considering it's just a kid's book, I'm happy to know some people take racism serious and teach our future generations the same thing. IMO, there's far more parents and leaders teaching the wrong way.

And by no means is this anything against you. Just a big picture question.

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I'm with ECA on this one.  I don't have an issue with it.  I mean you could easily make the same argument that the steam engine lead to massive genocide of indigenous peoples as well as whole sale slaughter of plains mammals. 

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15 minutes ago, utenation said:

Honest question. Would you rather have smltwnrckr teaching his kids and other kids(hypothetically your kids) racism is bad or the other way around? Even if you think he's being extreme about this considering it's just a kid's book, I'm happy to know some people take racism serious and teach our future generations the same thing. IMO, there's far more parents and leaders teaching the wrong way.

And by no means is this anything against you. Just a big picture question.

I'm not even suggesting that children's books have to teach that racism is bad. I just think that those books shouldn't erase history. The book says the cotton gin made the work of cotton production better for those producing it. The opposite is the truth. If the book said the printing press made things worse for people who like words, I would point that out as a problem too.

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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1 minute ago, HR_Poke said:

I'm with ECA on this one.  I don't have an issue with it.  I mean you could easily make the same argument that the steam engine lead to massive genocide of indigenous peoples as well as whole sale slaughter of plains mammals. 

The connection is not direct as the cotton gin. This example is more like saying that the steam engine made it easier for indians to sell their baskets.

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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1 minute ago, smltwnrckr said:

I'm not even suggesting that children's books have to teach that racism is bad. I just think that those books shouldn't erase history. The book says the cotton gin made the work of cotton production better for those producing it. The opposite is the truth. If the book said the printing press made things worse for people who like words, I would point that out as a problem too.

It says it made the slow process quick and clean. Is that not the case? Did it not speed up the existing manual process? 

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1 minute ago, smltwnrckr said:

The connection is not direct as the cotton gin. This example is more like saying that the steam engine made it easier for indians to sell their baskets.

Not very clear. The connection between the steam engine and genocide is not as clear and direct as the connection between the gin and slave labor. The machine was made to mechanize the processing of cotton, which was an industry that had largely a slave labor force supporting it. So in that sense, it is directly connected to the expansion and increased brutality of slavery in the south.

The steam engines and baskets comparison relates more to the portrayal that the invention made things better for them because cotton production was more efficient... it's like saying the steam engine was better for the miwok because theh got to sell more baskets.

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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8 minutes ago, HR_Poke said:

It says it made the slow process quick and clean. Is that not the case? Did it not speed up the existing manual process? 

It expanded the demand for field laborers picking the cotton. It made the experience of slavery much more brutal while also making that form of labor much more vital to the southern economy and society. So for the people acxtually producing it, it made it harder and longer and dirtier and more brutal. 

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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7 hours ago, HR_Poke said:

Idk, it didn't cover much more than my 7th grade history class. Only so much context you can include in two paragraphs.

What? in 4th grade we talked explicitly about how the cotton gin made slavery more economical and widespread, how it had been on its way out, and how it was the single invention most responsible for the civil war. 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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