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crixus

HOF - Big Papi In, Bonds, Clemens, Sosa & Schilling Miss Again

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7 minutes ago, Swoll Cracker said:

I’m conflicted by this whole PED thing.  Plenty of players from the 60’s, 70’s, and 80’s were selected to the Hall of Fame even though they relied heavily on amphetamines to get them though the day-to-day challenges of a long baseball season. Obviously a different form of Performance Enhancer but a PED nonetheless.

I really think guys like Bonds and Clemens are more that deserving for having been the best of their era, regardless of the PED stuff.

By the way, I have an amphetamine story to share to show you how powerful they were. My college roommate played professional baseball. I was driving back to Tucson from the east coast and stopped to see him play in Omaha. I had 36 hours to get to Tucson after a game. My roommate reached into the medicine kit of his baseball roommate and said “Take this.” I did. And I drove 36 straight hours from Omaha to Tucson, stopping at the North Rim of the Grand Canyon to catch a sunrise before heading to Tucson. Them baseball greenies were STRONG!

Tony used to tell stories about how magic greenies were (especially for catchers) and that a lot of guys basically wouldn't have been able to get through a season. He also basically told us the amount of pitchers cheating (foreign substance and or scuffing) was most pitchers. Lol. Baseball is basically a game built around how much you can cheat without getting caught. 

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, NVGiant said:

I don't think anyone can reasonably question that steroids help. Recovery is a big part of that. Not just during the season but in offseason workout regimens. But the unspoken part of the steroids era was the increased velocity of pitchers juicing. They threw harder in the juiced era than ever before, and higher velocity matched with good contact made the ball go farther. Simple physics.

Funny thing is instead of juice, pitchers are now using technology-aided training to improve movement efficiency with the sole purpose of generating more velocity. The result is pitchers throw harder on average than the pitchers in the steroid era. Combined with the change in hitting philosophy that emphasizes launch angles and discourages soft contact, hitters are hitting more home runs than the steroid guys could ever dream of.  

There were 6,776 home runs hit last season, most ever. In 96, the summer of Sosa and McGwire, there was a record 4,962 home runs hit. The high during the steroids era was in 2000 when there was 5,693.

It's important to note the individual highs are down and the average number of HRs hit at each position has gone up. Basically money ball has taken over the sport.

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, NVGiant said:

I don't think anyone can reasonably question that steroids help. Recovery is a big part of that. Not just during the season but in offseason workout regimens. But the unspoken part of the steroids era was the increased velocity of pitchers juicing. They threw harder in the juiced era than ever before, and higher velocity matched with good contact made the ball go farther. Simple physics.

Funny thing is instead of juice, pitchers are now using technology-aided training to improve movement efficiency with the sole purpose of generating more velocity. The result is pitchers throw harder on average than the pitchers in the steroid era. Combined with the change in hitting philosophy that emphasizes launch angles and discourages soft contact, today's hitters are hitting more home runs than the steroid guys could ever dream of.  

There were 6,776 home runs hit last season, most ever. In 96, the summer of Sosa and McGwire, there was a record 4,962 home runs hit. The high during the steroids era was in 2000 when there was 5,693.

The physics of it is really interesting. But isn't that, like, hitters collectively? Which is an interesting change. There are more home runs than ever, but there are not as many people hitting a ton of HRs. IIRC, the Giants had like the most HRs of any team this year or among it. But how many HRs did their top slugger hit?

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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12 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

The physics of it is really interesting. But isn't that, like, hitters collectively? Which is an interesting change. There are more home runs than ever, but there are not as many people hitting a ton of HRs. IIRC, the Giants had like the most HRs of any team this year or among it. But how many HRs did their top slugger hit?

Brandon Belt led the Giants with 30. They were an unusually structured team though. An outlier by most any era's standard. But what you say is mostly true. Pete Alonso hit 50-something homers in 2019, and a ton of guys are hitting in the 40s. Sal Perez hit 48 this year, which is 20 more than he had ever hit before. But nobody is coming close to the heights reached by Bonds, much less McGwire and Sosa. There has to be some sort of correlation with steroids, but I can't say I can offer a definitive answer. I can also say that one reason is that no one in baseball today is quite like Bonds. You can count on one hand the number of players in history who possessed a similar combination of power, contact skills, and strike zone awareness. He was one of the best in history even before steroids. On steroids he was almost superhuman. 

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7 minutes ago, NVGiant said:

Brandon Belt led the Giants with 30. They were an unusually structured team though. An outlier by most any era's standard. But what you say is mostly true. Pete Alonso hit 50-something homers in 2019, and a ton of guys are hitting in the 40s. Sal Perez hit 48 this year, which is 20 more than he had ever hit before. But nobody is coming close to the heights reached by Bonds, much less McGwire and Sosa. There has to be some sort of correlation with steroids, but I can't say I can offer a definitive answer. I can also say that one reason is that no one in baseball today is quite like Bonds. You can count on one hand the number of players in history who possessed a similar combination of power, contact skills, and strike zone awareness. He was one of the best in history even before steroids. On steroids he was almost superhuman. 

I havent compared eras, but I am guessing the price paid for all the additional home runs now is way way more strikeouts than before(and perhaps lower averages but higher OBPs). At least it feels that way.

 

 

 

 

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24 minutes ago, NVGiant said:

I don't think anyone can reasonably question that steroids help. Recovery is a big part of that. Not just during the season but in offseason workout regimens. But the unspoken part of the steroids era was the increased velocity of pitchers juicing. They threw harder in the juiced era than ever before, and higher velocity matched with good contact made the ball go farther. Simple physics.

Funny thing is instead of juice, pitchers are now using technology-aided training to improve movement efficiency with the sole purpose of generating more velocity. The result is pitchers throw harder on average than the pitchers in the steroid era. Combined with the change in hitting philosophy that emphasizes launch angles and discourages soft contact, today's hitters are hitting more home runs than the steroid guys could ever dream of.  

There were 6,776 home runs hit in 2019, most ever. Last year, there was 5,944 hit. In 96, the summer of Sosa and McGwire, there was a record 4,962 home runs hit. The high during the steroids era was in 2000 when there was 5,693.

Holy Stat Nerd Batman.. :P

 

Will You Change Your Mind About Tables (data)?

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2 minutes ago, RebelAlliance said:

Schilling is not in because IT WAS KETCHUP!

I dont like Schilling, and obviously a lot of people agree with me, but his treatment basically proves voters arent just considering stats....

 

 

 

 

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31 minutes ago, AztecSU said:

I havent compared eras, but I am guessing the price paid for all the additional home runs now is way way more strikeouts than before(and perhaps lower averages but higher OBPs). At least it feels that way.

Yep. Strikeouts are through the roof. More than 40,000 in each of the last few years. That's almost double than what you saw in the 80s (though there are more teams now, the point remains). Every other assumption you make is true. Home runs, walks, strikeouts are all way up. Steals are way, way down. Sabermetrics dominate the game (unfortunately, IMO).  

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I think people are spending to much time about PED's on the voting while not concentrating on something else.

Clemens and Bonds were dicks to baseball writers and other writers from time to time during their careers. Writes remember these things and that works against them.

When you see Ortiz, he was fun, he was polite with the writers, and all that so more of them will look over the PED becasue of these things, where Bonds and Clemens didn't. I think that is the key measure. 

We have new writers coming in, in the next couple of years so it will be interesting to see if things start to change or not.

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28 minutes ago, wolfpack1 said:

I think people are spending to much time about PED's on the voting while not concentrating on something else.

Clemens and Bonds were dicks to baseball writers and other writers from time to time during their careers. Writes remember these things and that works against them.

When you see Ortiz, he was fun, he was polite with the writers, and all that so more of them will look over the PED becasue of these things, where Bonds and Clemens didn't. I think that is the key measure. 

We have new writers coming in, in the next couple of years so it will be interesting to see if things start to change or not.

There is some truth to this, too. The writers that have votes, especially some of the old-timers, can be ridiculous. The funny thing is Papi is as big a dick, or worse, as Bonds or Clemens. But Papi is a better self-promoter. Fraud that he is. 

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1 minute ago, NVGiant said:

There is some truth to this, too. The writers that have votes, especially some of the old-timers, can be ridiculous. The funny thing is Papi is as big a dick, or worse, than Bonds or Clemens. But Papi is just a better self-promoter. Fraud that he is. 

Yea but if you are do it well, and choose your spots not doing it most of the time people will forget those moments or say that was a bad moment

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16 minutes ago, wolfpack1 said:

Yea but if you are do it well, and choose your spots not doing it most of the time people will forget those moments or say that was a bad moment

Or like Ty Cobb, be inducted into the hall of fame long after anyone remembers what a terrible human being you were.

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17 hours ago, Spaztecs said:

Still waiting for Minnie Minoso, Gil Hodges, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker and others to get in.

 

https://www.mlb.com/news/best-mlb-players-not-in-hall-of-fame

Kelly's all-time non-HOF team (as of 2020)

C: Bill Freehan
1B: Rafael Palmeiro
2B: Lou Whitaker
3B: Dick Allen
SS: Omar Vizquel
LF: Barry Bonds
CF: Kenny Lofton
RF: Shoeless Joe Jackson
DH: Hal McRae
---
R-H SP: Roger Clemens
L-H SP: Johan Santana
R-H RP: Dan Quisenberry
L-H RP: Billy Wagner

Palmeiro should absolutely not get into the HOF. He not only juiced, he lied to a congressional committee about it.

Clemens also lied about juicing but not to a congressional committee so he's a bit less slimy but I don't think he should get in either unless he publicly admits he juiced and shows contrition for having lied.

Joe Jackson lied under oath in a court proceeding about having accepted money to throw the 1919 WS. However, he subsequently admitted he accepted $5K and, unlike for Eddie Cicotte, there is virtually no evidence Jackson intentionally underperformed. Jackson’s on the field performance was absolutely HOF worthy and with that sole exception he was always a man of character.  The guy has been kept out of the HOF for decades and I favor creation of a special wing of the hall for guys like that.  (I'd let Pete Rose into that wing posthumously too.)

Bonds clearly juiced and has never admitted to it but OTOH he hasn't patently lied about doing so. I’m on the fence about him getting in.

The other guys on that list all belong in a Hall of the Very Good.

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34 minutes ago, soupslam1 said:

Heck why even have PED rules, let all athletes take PEDs so we as fans can watch superhuman performances. 

Alex Rodriguez didn't take steroids as far as we know but was determined by an arbitration board to have taken PEDs and although he never testified in that proceeding, the arbitration decision makes extremely apparent that the board's decision was the correct one yet A-Rod still refuses to admit to taking the PEDs. Unless and until A-Rod does that unequivocally, he should not get into the HOF.

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43 minutes ago, 818SUDSFan said:

Alex Rodriguez didn't take steroids as far as we know but was determined by an arbitration board to have taken PEDs and although he never testified in that proceeding, the arbitration decision makes extremely apparent that the board's decision was the correct one yet A-Rod still refuses to admit to taking the PEDs. Unless and until A-Rod does that unequivocally, he should not get into the HOF.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/news/story?id=3894847

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