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Land war in Europe game thread! (with poll)

US Response to Russian Invasion of Ukraine  

65 members have voted

  1. 1. What should the US response to a Russian invasion of Ukraine be?

    • Nuke 'em
    • Full conventional military response, troops, tanks, fighters etc take part in defense of Ukraine
    • Air/missile strikes against key Russian military targets
    • Economic embargo of Russia
    • Economic sanctions against Russia
    • Cutoff diplomatic relations with Russia
    • Nothing.


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On 7/22/2022 at 12:19 PM, Cleopatra said:

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/

ok here you go.

notice all the articles calling Russia occupiers and the enemy

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainska_Pravda

 

which is owned by dragon capital, which does not appear to have any connection to george soros

so why did you bring up the anti-semite's favorite boogieman lol

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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On 7/22/2022 at 10:27 AM, Cleopatra said:

I'll see if I can find it again.  IBut it is in that same newspaper that I linked above that you said is Russian because it is titled Pravda Ukraine, but it is obvious on the front page that it is totally against Russia and is a Ukraine newspaper.   they call Russia the enemy throughout.

I'm not sure why you said I am lying about that being a Ukraine newspaper and not a Russia one.

I guess there is no convincing and its a waste of time

The paper is also notably Anti Zelensky and Anti US/NATO influence.  

"In review, the Ukrayinska Pravda utilizes emotionally loaded language in their headlines such as “How Paul Manafort Brought US Politics to Ukraine (and Ukrainian Politics to the US).” A quote from the article reads, “It turned out that our ‘good old’ corruption can influence US presidential elections! After the Yanukovych cash scandal, the US media voiced a number of concerns about Manafort and his boss.” They also publish articles that are critical of Right-Leaning Nationalist President Zelensky, such as “Who is mister Zelensky?” and “White spots on Zelensky’s anti-corruption map.” In general, editorial positions favor the left, such as this Three nuts from Zelensky: how the president proposes to save Ukrainian business."

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On 7/22/2022 at 9:27 AM, happycamper said:

which is owned by dragon capital, which does not appear to have any connection to george soros

so why did you bring up the anti-semite's favorite boogieman lol

what on earth are you talking about?

I am not anti-semite, and I do not hate george soros!

You two are just trolling now

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Capital_(company)

In 2016-2020, Dragon Capital, together with its foreign partners, invested more than $600 million in real estate, of which more than $500 million are Kyiv and Kyiv region.[1] The investment partner, among others, is the American financier, stock market investor George Soros.[2]

The company sells war bonds of Ukraine. [3]

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On 7/22/2022 at 9:29 AM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

The paper is also notably Anti Zelensky and Anti US/NATO influence.  

"In review, the Ukrayinska Pravda utilizes emotionally loaded language in their headlines such as “How Paul Manafort Brought US Politics to Ukraine (and Ukrainian Politics to the US).” A quote from the article reads, “It turned out that our ‘good old’ corruption can influence US presidential elections! After the Yanukovych cash scandal, the US media voiced a number of concerns about Manafort and his boss.” They also publish articles that are critical of Right-Leaning Nationalist President Zelensky, such as “Who is mister Zelensky?” and “White spots on Zelensky’s anti-corruption map.” In general, editorial positions favor the left, such as this Three nuts from Zelensky: how the president proposes to save Ukrainian business."

I don't know what article you linked above but i do not disagree thatt they could have written a critical article of Zelenksy

that would be no different that the New York times writing a bad article of Trump or Biden.

 

You keep saying it is a communist newspaper out of Russia because you saw the word "Pravda" but again, there is no convincing you.   

I even got called anti-semite because in reference to that paper which was slander

you do you.   

 

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On 7/22/2022 at 10:33 AM, Cleopatra said:

I don't know what article you linked above but i do not disagree thatt they could have written a critical article of Zelenksy

 

It's multiple articles.  No, they have long history of negative reporting on Zelensky.  Similar to the NYPost style articles about Biden.  Which is fine and not an indictment in and of itself.  

 

On 7/22/2022 at 10:33 AM, Cleopatra said:

You keep saying it is a communist newspaper out of Russia because you saw the word "Pravda" but again, there is no convincing you.   

 

No, I don't.

On 7/22/2022 at 10:33 AM, Cleopatra said:

I even got called anti-semite because in reference to that paper which was slander

No, you didn't.  He asked why you fabricated a connection with Soros sponsorship or funding, which is what anti-semites often do.

 

On 7/22/2022 at 10:33 AM, Cleopatra said:

you do you.   

 

Sure.  If you feel like explaining how the US and UK could have possibly impeded peace talks between the two countries please do.  

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On 7/22/2022 at 9:37 AM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

It's multiple articles.  No, they have long history of negative reporting on Zelensky.  Similar to the NYPost style articles about Biden.  Which is fine and not an indictment in and of itself.  

 

No, I don't.

No, you didn't.  He asked why you fabricated a connection with Soros sponsorship or funding, which is what anti-semites often do.

 

Sure.  If you feel like explaining how the US and UK could have possibly impeded peace talks between the two countries please do.  

I do not pretend to know the lean of Ukraine Pravda newspaper. 

I only ever said it is a legitimate newspaper and not the communist pravada newspaper out of Russia.  It is a Ukraine newspaper and focuses on Ukraine politics.   The article i shared 2 months ago was just a commentary on peace nogitations.

 

there is no fabricated assocation of Ukraine Pravda newspaper with George Soros.   It is owned by Dragon Capital of which George is an investment partner.    Typing out George Soros name is not evidence of hating Jews.  I posted his name to show that Ukraine Pravda has American supporter investing because you said it was only Russians

 

I am for peace in Ukraine because I hate to see people being killed, houses bombed, and refugees.   I support any avenue for peace because of this.   I do not support Putin and wish he would be killed and that this war never happened.  I love the Ukraine people, and it makes me sick to see their country destroyed

 

but I don't think you want an honest convesation and just try to make people look bad like to win points on the internet.

ok bye.

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On 7/22/2022 at 12:29 PM, Cleopatra said:

what on earth are you talking about?

I am not anti-semite, and I do not hate george soros!

You two are just trolling now

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Capital_(company)

In 2016-2020, Dragon Capital, together with its foreign partners, invested more than $600 million in real estate, of which more than $500 million are Kyiv and Kyiv region.[1] The investment partner, among others, is the American financier, stock market investor George Soros.[2]

The company sells war bonds of Ukraine. [3]

Ok? I'm translating that article bit by bit and it mentions Soros... once... along with Goldman Sachs. The Wikipedia article you link only shows where Sachs invested, not Soros. 

The only mention I've seen about it is this 2017 article: https://inventure.com.ua/en/news/ukraine/dragon-capital-goldman-sachs-opic-and-george-soros-to-attract-usd-300mln-into-ukraine

which mentions Soros as a partner of Dragon, but not owner (unlike Sachs). 

There's another article here: https://www.intellinews.com/george-soros-is-anchor-investor-in-new-ukraine-fund-acquires-stake-in-it-firm-84225/

but that just shows dragon capital managing a soros investment vehicle which, uh, is not what you are talking about.

So why mention Soros (not an owner) instead of Sachs (minority owner)?

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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On 7/22/2022 at 9:45 AM, happycamper said:

Ok? I'm translating that article bit by bit and it mentions Soros... once... along with Goldman Sachs. The Wikipedia article you link only shows where Sachs invested, not Soros. 

The only mention I've seen about it is this 2017 article: https://inventure.com.ua/en/news/ukraine/dragon-capital-goldman-sachs-opic-and-george-soros-to-attract-usd-300mln-into-ukraine

which mentions Soros as a partner of Dragon, but not owner (unlike Sachs). 

There's another article here: https://www.intellinews.com/george-soros-is-anchor-investor-in-new-ukraine-fund-acquires-stake-in-it-firm-84225/

but that just shows dragon capital managing a soros investment vehicle which, uh, is not what you are talking about.

So why mention Soros (not an owner) instead of Sachs (minority owner)?

you are way overthinking this

 

I did a google search of Ukraine Pravda newspaper curious to see who the owners are, and it had a wikipedia artile that said it was owned by Dragon Capital if which I never heard of it but there was link.

I clicked on the link in the Dragon Captial link it said that George Soros is a partner in Dragon Capital

George Soros is American, so Ukraine Pravda newspaper has Americans investing in it.

that's my only point.   that it has American support and different ownership investment that the communist Russia pravda newspaper.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Capital_(company)

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On 7/22/2022 at 10:43 AM, Cleopatra said:

I do not pretend to know the lean of Ukraine Pravda newspaper. 

Well understanding that would be key in evaluating an opinion peace (which are usually more biased than the news articles) in that paper, right?

 

On 7/22/2022 at 10:43 AM, Cleopatra said:

Typing out George Soros name is not evidence of hating Jews.  

No, it's not.  You are new here, don't take offense when people try an probe your motivations.  You are an unknown.  Nobody accused you of anything.  

 

On 7/22/2022 at 10:43 AM, Cleopatra said:

I posted his name to show that Ukraine Pravda has American supporter investing because you said it was only Russians

Looks like happy covered this.

 

On 7/22/2022 at 10:43 AM, Cleopatra said:

I am for peace in Ukraine because I hate to see people being killed, houses bombed, and refugees.   I support any avenue for peace because of this.   I do not support Putin and wish he would be killed and that this war never happened.  I love the Ukraine people, and it makes me sick to see their country destroyed

If you love the Ukrainian people so much then support their right to decide how long they want to fight.  What we need to decide is how long we are going to provide them arms and other support.  That's a fair debate to have.  A years long war of attrition would be a global catastrophe. 

 

On 7/22/2022 at 10:43 AM, Cleopatra said:

but I don't think you want an honest convesation and just try to make people look bad like to win points on the internet.

 

 

No, I just pointed out your assertion that the US and UK torpedoed peace in Ukraine, pressuring Ukraine to do things they don't want to do sounds like nonsense.  You think the administrations and pols in either country WANT this war to go on?  Have you seen what inflation has done to their approval ratings?  

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On 7/22/2022 at 9:55 AM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Well understanding that would be key in evaluating an opinion peace (which are usually more biased than the news articles) in that paper, right?

 

No, it's not.  You are new here, don't take offense when people try an probe your motivations.  You are an unknown.  Nobody accused you of anything.  

 

Looks like happy covered this.

 

If you love the Ukrainian people so much then support their right to decide how long they want to fight.  What we need to decide is how long we are going to provide them arms and other support.  That's a fair debate to have.  A years long war of attrition would be a global catastrophe. 

 

 

No, I just pointed out your assertion that the US and UK torpedoed peace in Ukraine, pressuring Ukraine to do things they don't want to do sounds like nonsense.  You think the administrations and pols in either country WANT this war to go on?  Have you seen what inflation has done to their approval ratings?  

 

to date i have sent $700 to friends in Europe to buy supplies for Ukrainians.

I wish I could afford more!

People that fled Ukraine have no house left anymore, it is gone.

I do not believe that Russia will back down, and I am in favor of all ideas to end the war and for peace,

I hope that Putin will not be on the earth much longer and that Russia will get a better leader who will stop this

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On 7/22/2022 at 1:02 PM, Cleopatra said:

 

to date i have sent $700 to friends in Europe to buy supplies for Ukrainians.

I wish I could afford more!

People that fled Ukraine have no house left anymore, it is gone.

I do not believe that Russia will back down, and I am in favor of all ideas to end the war and for peace,

I hope that Putin will not be on the earth much longer and that Russia will get a better leader who will stop this

why would they? control of ukraine - whether as a sattelite, or as an incorporated territory  - is part of imperialist russia's ambitions dating back to peter. russia already achieved control over their wild wild east, they have a kind of hegemony over the stans. their eyes are now focused back on dominating east, central, and south europe. 

the only thing that has stopped russia in this in the past are civil wars and outside resistance. and, i mean, why would they stop? we didn't stop until we brutally secured our empire, which we still maintain with occasional invasions (panama, grenada), with trade agreements, assassination of political leaders, support of death squads, and so on. 

no cleopatra. the only thing that will stop war in ukraine is a ukranian capitulation - so read ethnic cleansing and wondering who is next on the block - or a russian defeat of the magnitude of afghanistan. 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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@Cleopatra everybody wants peace in Ukraine.  You are not unique in that regard. I applaud your patronage.  

There are no good answers.  There are a lot of bad ones.  The US and NATO supplying Ukraine with the arms they need to keep the war going years will cripple Russias ability to make further war.  That is good.  Very good.  However it also means tens of millions around the world starving that would not otherwise. That is bad.  Very bad.  It means global financial instability and rapid inflation.  That is pretty bad.  It increases the chance of nuclear war.  That is catastrophically bad.  

I don't know what the right answer is, I know that Ukraine deserves to make the decision on how long they want to fight.  We need to make the decision on how long we will support it, or if our support will be unwavering.  

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You know the meme, "Peace was never an option"? Yeah, Russia just hit Odessa with missiles after signing a grain deal.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/russia-ukraine-trade-missile-strikes-094121363.html

Even if Ukraine "let" Russia keep the two "Republics" in the East and Crimea, Russia wouldn't stop. It wasn't that long ago they tried to invade and conquer Kiev. Putin has basically declared genocide on anything Ukrainian. And unless Ukrainians identify as Russians (even then, not a guarantee), Putin will continue his assault. He is purposefully targeting civilian population centers, shelters, and homes. The only "peace" he will accept is an unconditional surrender of the entire country.

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Thank you to all who still closely follow this conflict. I now check in only about once every few weeks and no longer watch any of the TV reports because it has become too depressing. I can't help thinking that my grandfather whose family was originally from Bavaria and was treated very badly by the government of the Russian Empire "escaped" from his family's "settlement" about 100 miles from the present Russia-Ukraine border a decade before the communists took over. Never meant all that much to me before but they were in "the" Ukraine at the time and I now have tremendous respect for what that poor potato farmer accomplished in managing to make his way to Idaho.

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On 7/23/2022 at 5:02 PM, 818SUDSFan said:

Thank you to all who still closely follow this conflict. I now check in only about once every few weeks and no longer watch any of the TV reports because it has become too depressing. I can't help thinking that my grandfather whose family was originally from Bavaria and was treated very badly by the government of the Russian Empire "escaped" from his family's "settlement" about 100 miles from the present Russia-Ukraine border a decade before the communists took over. Never meant all that much to me before but they were in "the" Ukraine at the time and I now have tremendous respect for what that poor potato farmer accomplished in managing to make his way to Idaho.

So that was your family's doing!

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On 7/23/2022 at 9:42 PM, son of a gun said:

So that was your family's doing!

As I might have explained once before, after Grandpa made his way West from Ellis Island, the government offered him land (40 acres, I think) outside Pocatello because he knew how to raise potatoes. The first thing he and his younger brother did when they got there was build what today would be referred to as a shack. When Grandpa married, he gradually expanded the shack while his brother built a similar structure on another part of the property. Last night I search for and found a leatherbound New Testament that he gave me as a Christmas present in 1965 when I was 10. He was a very religious man and I'm sure would have disapproved of my turn away from Christianity but he only had about half the formal education which I've been the beneficiary of.

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On 7/24/2022 at 1:38 PM, 818SUDSFan said:

As I might have explained once before, after Grandpa made his way West from Ellis Island, the government offered him land (40 acres, I think) outside Pocatello because he knew how to raise potatoes. The first thing he and his younger brother did when they got there was build what today would be referred to as a shack. When Grandpa married, he gradually expanded the shack while his brother built a similar structure on another part of the property. Last night I search for and found a leatherbound New Testament that he gave me as a Christmas present in 1965 when I was 10. He was a very religious man and I'm sure would have disapproved of my turn away from Christianity but he only had about half the formal education which I've been the beneficiary of.

...

I only meant in turning Idaho into the Potato State.

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On 7/24/2022 at 12:38 PM, 818SUDSFan said:

As I might have explained once before, after Grandpa made his way West from Ellis Island, the government offered him land (40 acres, I think) outside Pocatello because he knew how to raise potatoes. The first thing he and his younger brother did when they got there was build what today would be referred to as a shack. When Grandpa married, he gradually expanded the shack while his brother built a similar structure on another part of the property. Last night I search for and found a leatherbound New Testament that he gave me as a Christmas present in 1965 when I was 10. He was a very religious man and I'm sure would have disapproved of my turn away from Christianity but he only had about half the formal education which I've been the beneficiary of.

Nah he would have been sad not disapproved.  I only say this point as I have struggled with my religion also.  It’s hard to remember Christ, the God of perfect love, is not the same as his church.  I pray we both find our way back. 

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