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halfmanhalfbronco

So, this Ukraine shit.

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Thoughts?

Seems a Russian invasion is becoming more and more likely but still not sold it happens.  Gotta agree with Biden, the Ukraine is not worth one single American life.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/09/world/europe/ukraine-military-russia-invasion.html

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2 minutes ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Thoughts?

Seems a Russian invasion is becoming more and more likely but still not sold it happens.  Gotta agree with Biden, the Ukraine is not worth one single American life.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/09/world/europe/ukraine-military-russia-invasion.html

It definitely isn’t. Keep selling them weapons and funneling intel, but no American boots on the ground.

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NATO needs to do what's right and finally accept Ukraine as a member instead of a partner. Russia is going to end up annexing another part of a sovereign nation while we sit here and watch. 

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1 minute ago, retrofade said:

NATO needs to do what's right and finally accept Ukraine as a member instead of a partner. Russia is going to end up annexing another part of a sovereign nation while we sit here and watch. 

I disagree.  Russia blames the US an NATO for violating our agreement with them regarding which countries can become NATO members and where bases can be located.  We already shit on our 1990 agreement with them, multiple times.  We are kind of the bad guys in US-Russia relations.  I know people hate hearing that.  

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6 minutes ago, retrofade said:

NATO needs to do what's right and finally accept Ukraine as a member instead of a partner. Russia is going to end up annexing another part of a sovereign nation while we sit here and watch. 

Accepting them into NATO could trigger the whole thing. 

 

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Just now, bornontheblue said:

Accepting them into NATO could trigger the whole thing. 

 

This.  May as well be an act of war.

"In early February 1990, U.S. leaders made the Soviets an offer. According to transcripts of meetings in Moscow on Feb. 9, then-Secretary of State James Baker suggested that in exchange for cooperation on Germany, U.S. could make “iron-clad guarantees” that NATO would not expand “one inch eastward.” Less than a week later, Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev agreed to begin reunification talks. No formal deal was struck, but from all the evidence, the quid pro quo was clear: Gorbachev acceded to Germany’s western alignment and the U.S. would limit NATO’s expansion."

We are bad guys here, too.

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-shifrinson-russia-us-nato-deal--20160530-snap-story.html

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3 minutes ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

I disagree.  Russia blames the US an NATO for violating our agreement with them regarding which countries can become NATO members and where bases can be located.  We already shit on our 1990 agreement with them, multiple times.  We are kind of the bad guys in US-Russia relations.  I know people hate hearing that.  

We're the bad guys while Russia already annexed part of a sovereign nation, an ally, while we saw there and didn't do anything. Should we sit there and let them annex more of the same country? Perhaps the entire country? 

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1 minute ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

This.  May as well be an act of war.

"In early February 1990, U.S. leaders made the Soviets an offer. According to transcripts of meetings in Moscow on Feb. 9, then-Secretary of State James Baker suggested that in exchange for cooperation on Germany, U.S. could make “iron-clad guarantees” that NATO would not expand “one inch eastward.” Less than a week later, Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev agreed to begin reunification talks. No formal deal was struck, but from all the evidence, the quid pro quo was clear: Gorbachev acceded to Germany’s western alignment and the U.S. would limit NATO’s expansion."

We are bad guys here, too.

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-shifrinson-russia-us-nato-deal--20160530-snap-story.html

USSR != Russian Federation 

Ukraine was part of the USSR when that agreement was struck, then when the USSR fell, Ukraine became independent. 

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Just now, retrofade said:

We're the bad guys while Russia already annexed part of a sovereign nation, an ally, while we saw there and didn't do anything. Should we sit there and let them annex more of the same country? Perhaps the entire country? 

Sure.  Sanction them.   Not getting involved in Crimea outside of sanctions was also 100% the right move.  

And yeah, we are the bad guys.  Well, we are also the bad guys.  We made a deal.  We violated it first, over and over and over.  

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Just now, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Sure.  Sanction them.   Not getting involved in Crimea outside of sanctions was also 100% the right move.  

And yeah, we are the bad guys.  Well, we are also the bad guys.  We made a deal.  We violated it first, over and over and over.  

Like I said in my above post, USSR != Russian Federation. 

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Just now, retrofade said:

USSR != Russian Federation 

Ukraine was part of the USSR when that agreement was struck, then when the USSR fell, Ukraine became independent. 

And your point?  We agreed we would not expand NATO in Eastern Europe.  We basically t bagged Russia over and over and over. 

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Just now, halfmanhalfbronco said:

And your point?  We agreed we would not expand NATO in Eastern Europe.  We basically t bagged Russia over and over and over. 

You do realize that Ukraine isn't the endgame here, right? If we sit on our hands with so-called economic sanctions, Russia is going to achieve its overarching goal... re-unification of the USSR. But hey, let's just let them do it, right? 

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2 minutes ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Sure.  Sanction them.   Not getting involved in Crimea outside of sanctions was also 100% the right move.  

And yeah, we are the bad guys.  Well, we are also the bad guys.  We made a deal.  We violated it first, over and over and over.  

Well and we made a 3-way agreement with Russia and the Ukraine to de-nuclearize the Ukraine.

In retrospect, not the greatest idea

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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Just now, halfmanhalfbronco said:

And like I said whats your point?  We made a deal.  We violated it.  Over and over and over.  

We made a deal with the USSR, which doesn't fvcking exist anymore. 

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Just now, retrofade said:

You do realize that Ukraine isn't the endgame here, right? If we sit on our hands with so-called economic sanctions, Russia is going to achieve its overarching goal... re-unification of the USSR. But hey, let's just let them do it, right? 

retro I don't think they can. Hell they can hardly afford this brushfire war in a part of the Ukraine. 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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5 minutes ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

This.  May as well be an act of war.

"In early February 1990, U.S. leaders made the Soviets an offer. According to transcripts of meetings in Moscow on Feb. 9, then-Secretary of State James Baker suggested that in exchange for cooperation on Germany, U.S. could make “iron-clad guarantees” that NATO would not expand “one inch eastward.” Less than a week later, Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev agreed to begin reunification talks. No formal deal was struck, but from all the evidence, the quid pro quo was clear: Gorbachev acceded to Germany’s western alignment and the U.S. would limit NATO’s expansion."

We are bad guys here, too.

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-shifrinson-russia-us-nato-deal--20160530-snap-story.html

Nah. A deal that wasn’t struck with a country that doesn’t exist. Give me a break. Russia is the complete jerk here. We just don’t care enough to do anything about it.

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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1 minute ago, retrofade said:

You do realize that Ukraine isn't the endgame here, right? If we sit on our hands with so-called economic sanctions, Russia is going to achieve its overarching goal... re-unification of the USSR. But hey, let's just let them do it, right? 

Sure.  Beats the ever living shit out of a war with Russia.  Maybe we make a deal we actually honor this time and kick out  Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic, the Baltic states from NATO in exchange for them leaving the Ukraine alone?  I like that idea.  

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1 minute ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

Nah. A deal that wasn’t struck with a country that doesn’t exist. Give me a break. Russia is the complete jerk here. We just don’t care enough to do anything about it.

The understanding was clear.  We fugged em.  

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