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tailingpermit

Kyle Rittenhouse Trial

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10 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

Didn't read any of the thread cuz... what good would it do? This whole ordeal does not say anything good about America, on multiple levels. 100 years from now historians will use this event, trial, acquittal and the rhetoric surrounding something to connect to something bad that happens in the coming generation or two. Have no idea or prediction what it will be. But it will be something.

However, I'm torn.

The idea that a vigilante can knowingly walk into a politically charged situation, armed, and kill people, without any official authority, and without any actual reason to be there other than he wanted to walk into a politically charged situation, armed, and potentially kill people... and not be convicted of anything is a frightening thing indeed. Frightening thing. Are the second amendment and the first amendment compatible moving forward? I think so, and always have. But these sorts of things begin casting doubt. 

On the other hand, there was a lot of rhetoric that I came across pointing to this event as a symbol of how the justice system treats white people better than black people. And while I absolutely agree with that, that a black man or a man of color who did this would have been killed by the police or would have been convicted, a lot of people were calling on a conviction as a way to balance things. But the answer to the problems in the justice system is not to convict more people if the evidence isn't there. It's to work harder to make sure young black men who killed people in chaotic situations but did it in self defense get as much of a fair trial as this one. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening either. 

So it's all just very sad. 

I lean away from this characterization, mostly from the example of one Allan Swinney. He's a middle aged fash who is in jail for, well, a lot of stuff. His planned goal was to be the guy who shot some liberal protesters and became famous for it at a protest. He geared up for it. He planned it. He antagonized people deliberately in protest after protest across the northwest.

 

And... it never happened. The set of circumstances for this to occur the way it did - for people to get shot, for people to get shot and for Rittenhouse to walk, and for people to get shot, and Rittenhouse to walk, for Rittenhouse to clearly not premeditate his actions, and have it be just ambiguous enough that a lot of people who accept the verdict to be uncomfortable with it - that was some sort of cosmic shit. It had to play out just so. I don't think this is going to be much of a precedent setter for that reason. I may be wrong, but there you go. 

5 minutes ago, East Coast Aztec said:

Minneapolis police were much different than Chicago police than.  They were rolling around +++++ing with people, stabbing out tires, slashing pallets of water, while leaving randomly place pallets of bricks alone.  Police instigated a lot of shit in MPLS.   Doesn't absolve people who committed crimes, but they wanted that to happen in Minneapolis.  And I doubt Chicago PD were angels either.

PPB did similar. 

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3 minutes ago, bornontheblue said:

If I walk around my neighborhood and start setting houses on fire and  a police officer catches me doing it , and I refuse to stop , and they use violence to stop me , them state sanctioned violence is justified. 

sometimes state sanctioned violence is justified 

 

right. but you're explicitly sanctioning state violence while explicitly condemning citizen violence.

That seems, um, antithetical to the entire thesis statement of America, bro

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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5 minutes ago, happycamper said:

that was some sort of cosmic shit. It had to play out just so. 

 

You can say this about a LOT of history, though. 

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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You are wrong. I am saying state sanctioned violence is justified to protect lives and property. This has been settled long, long ago In our legal system. 
 

what is your address , can I come and burn your house and car down  to the ground because I don’t like the way a court case turned out. Don’t get the police involved to try and stop me either because we all know state sanctioned violence is never , ever allowed. 
 

Cmon, come back to the real world. 

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5 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

You can say this about a LOT of history, though. 

Yes. 

On the one hand, many of those weren't subsequent precedents for similar events, they were just hinge points whose immediate consequences were large.

OTOH, we never know. 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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5 minutes ago, bornontheblue said:

You are wrong. I am saying state sanctioned violence is justified to protect lives and property. This has been settled long, long ago In our legal system. 
 

what is your address , can I come and burn your house and car down  to the ground because I don’t like the way a court case turned out. Don’t get the police involved to try and stop me either because we all know state sanctioned violence is never , ever allowed. 
 

Cmon, come back to the real world. 

Right. You're explicitly saying that state sanctioned violence is okay and citizen violence is not. 

In this particular circumstance, and with this context, you're furthermore saying that it is acceptable for the state to kill its citizens, and it is not okay for the citizens to thereby have civil disobedience. 

My guy, that's explicit authoritarianism.

It's especially hilarious to say "well god forbid these people use violence TO PROTEST STATE VIOLENCE!!!! To stop their violence we simply must turn to the state to use violence against them!"
Your argument is flawed from the jump.

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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19 minutes ago, happycamper said:

in america freedom to assemble is only in control when it is in a police logged and planned route

Wait until you find out about your gun freedom.  

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2 minutes ago, happycamper said:

Yes. 

On the one hand, many of those weren't subsequent precedents for similar events, they were just hinge points whose immediate consequences were large.

OTOH, we never know. 

I'm not sure this is going to lead to more similar events. I think it is just going to be a moment that tells us about America at this time, and the thing that it tells us will not be clear until subsequent events unfold. What it tells us, we don't know. 

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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7 minutes ago, ClevelandBrown said:

The best defense attorneys in this case were the prosecutors. This whole trial was a 🤡 show.

It’s true. But at the same time if the case wasn’t such a political lightning rod it probably wouldn’t have been brought otherwise. They had a huge mountain to climb on the facts and did pretty much everything they could as advocates. It’s not like they wanted to become memes. They had to try everything.

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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26 minutes ago, tailingpermit said:

As soon as protestors tried to leave the planned route, of course they weren’t angels.  Immediately after that it went to trying to breach the Trump Hotel, smashing windows on the Mag Mile and flipping cop cars.  Shit, we had armed guards in our lobby which got the windows smashed in.

 

There is a difference between going off a planned route, and destroying property.  Are you saying that cops weren't angels for both scenarios?  Because I wouldn't even apply an angel tag to them trying to quash destruction of property, but if CPD got violent because they went off a planned route, well, do you see where that is an excessive response?   Now, when a group does something minor like go off a planned route, and IF CPD started being violent as a response, now what do you think might happen?  Which is why you have to tip your cap to Michigan State PD and Capitol PD for not being violent, because it could have gotten much worse had they done that.  

 

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Just now, thelawlorfaithful said:

It’s true. But at the same time if the case wasn’t such a political lightning rod it probably wouldn’t have been brought. They had a huge mountain to climb on the facts and did pretty much everything they could as advocates. It’s not like they wanted to become memes. They had to try everything.

816d2efd4bf7299354844219916bdbbf.jpg

 

Everything meme!

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2 minutes ago, happycamper said:

Right. You're explicitly saying that state sanctioned violence is okay and citizen violence is not. 

In this particular circumstance, and with this context, you're furthermore saying that it is acceptable for the state to kill its citizens, and it is not okay for the citizens to thereby have civil disobedience. 

My guy, that's explicit authoritarianism.

It's especially hilarious to say "well god forbid these people use violence TO PROTEST STATE VIOLENCE!!!! To stop their violence we simply must turn to the state to use violence against them!"
Your argument is flawed from the jump.

You are a fool!

That is absolutely not what I am saying. 

I am saying you have a right to protest. Violence at this point is not justified. If however people are harmed , killed and property destroyed, the general public is placed in danger then violence is justified to end the violence that they started.

Most people grasp this simple concept.  You are a smart guy. Why is this difficult for you???

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5 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

I'm not sure this is going to lead to more similar events. I think it is just going to be a moment that tells us about America at this time, and the thing that it tells us will not be clear until subsequent events unfold. What it tells us, we don't know. 

I'd say Rittenhouse and his whisky tango ilk were emboldened by Zimmerman being an unlicensed vigilatnte who gets off murdering people.  They are loving this shit.  Now they know they can go and basically cosplay police and get away with anything they do.

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19 minutes ago, tailingpermit said:

It was in Kenosha.  

That is what I thought all along, I was driving at the time and radio news said from Madison Wisconsin.  I guess I just jumped to the conclusion the trial was moved to Madison.  Thanks for the correction.

110926run_defense710.jpg
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1 minute ago, East Coast Aztec said:

There is a difference between going off a planned route, and destroying property.  Are you saying that cops weren't angels for both scenarios?  Because I wouldn't even apply an angel tag to them trying to quash destruction of property, but if they got violent because they went off a planned route, well, do you see where that is an excessive response?   Now, when a group does something minor like go off a planned route, and IF CPD started being violent as a response, now what do you think might happen?  Which is why you have to tip your cap to Michigan State PD and Capitol PD for not being violent, because it could have gotten much worse had they done that.  

 

I dunno about the Kenosha thing specifically but the police in Vegas got pretty physical with people walking down the wrong street during the George Floyd stuff. 

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1 minute ago, bornontheblue said:

You are a fool!

That is absolutely not what I am saying. 

I am saying you have a right to protest. Violence at this point is not justified. If however people are harmed , killed and property destroyed, the general public is placed in danger then violence is justified to end the violence that they started.

Most people grasp this simple concept.  You are a smart guy. Why is this difficult for you???

"That they started"

I pointed out that this is objectively false dude.

You are saying this. You just are used to thinking in authoritarian terms, where the citizenry and the state are not equals. 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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Just now, toonkee said:

I dunno about the Kenosha thing specifically but the police in Vegas got pretty physical with people walking down the wrong street during the George Floyd stuff. 

I didn't really hear about Kenosha PD starting it either.  I just assumed that was more of a Ferguson thing where they skipped a lot of steps and went right to the molotovs

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