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mugtang

Debt ceiling

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3 minutes ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Good arguments for and against this.  The best arguments against are a waste of tax payer dollars.  It would not be that hard to get a team of 10 senators together to running relays talking gibberish to pause a vote...In fact that is exactly what would happen.  Sounds pretty gross. 

That said Paul's 11 hour or whatever talking filibuster of the patriot act was maybe the highlight of congress the past generation.   

Who cares about wasting taxpayer dollars at this point? We're talking about the US Senate, where the numbers are made up and the facts don't matter. Make them actually have some skin in the game when it comes to stuff like this. I agree on Paul's talking filibuster of the Patriot Act. I praised him for it, here and elsewhere, it's just too bad that he's become a mindless GQP ideologue now. 

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8 minutes ago, retrofade said:

Who cares about wasting taxpayer dollars at this point? We're talking about the US Senate, where the numbers are made up and the facts don't matter. Make them actually have some skin in the game when it comes to stuff like this. I agree on Paul's talking filibuster of the Patriot Act. I praised him for it, here and elsewhere, it's just too bad that he's become a mindless GQP ideologue now. 

What's the point of forcing them to talk? Results are the same, and now they can do it faster.

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1 minute ago, retrofade said:

Who cares about wasting taxpayer dollars at this point? We're talking about the US Senate, where the numbers are made up and the facts don't matter. Make them actually have some skin in the game when it comes to stuff like this. I agree on Paul's talking filibuster of the Patriot Act. I praised him for it, here and elsewhere, it's just too bad that he's become a mindless GQP ideologue now. 

Agreed regarding Paul...that was a damn fine moment...sad to see what he decided to do later.

The who cares I guess is me?  And people like me?  Going back to the days of a talking 'buster, which I would be ok with in theory, would not do anything to stymie the tide of radicalism.  It's really not hard at all to stand up for a few hours and read children books, or if that is not allowed, just rhyme words under the point of the meaning of words or whatever nonsense would ensue....So nothing would change, just less would get done and the the FILIBUSTER OMFGO DIE BITCH DIEE!!!!!  Would be made ever more the boogeyman.....

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18 minutes ago, HR_Poke said:

What's the point of forcing them to talk? Results are the same, and now they can do it faster.

Yes.  True.  They can do it faster so that they can get back to doing absolutely nothing anyway.

I don't think we should get ride of the filibuster but if it's going to be allowed then I think the senators should have to sit there and actually filibuster.  Since nothing will get done either way tax payers $$ isn't affected.... it's lost either way.

 

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12 minutes ago, Someone Else said:

Yes.  True.  They can do it faster so that they can get back to doing absolutely nothing anyway.

I don't think we should get ride of the filibuster but if it's going to be allowed then I think the senators should have to sit there and actually filibuster.  Since nothing will get done either way tax payers $$ isn't affected.... it's lost either way.

 

The argument I have seen is time wasted in a talking 'buster can and has been spent in negotiating rather than listening....

Not saying it is a strong argument in today's theater.  

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1 hour ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

It has become more of a sacred cow with me of late simply because I am reading the tea leaves (though granted I have never been much of a diviner so I could just be acting a fool, but I doubt it) as I have witnessed in my adult life the fringes of each party gain more and more control over the agenda the said parties peruse.  I have my own issues with the way the filibuster is currently construed but I see keeping it as is to be preferable than allowing slim to no majorities be able to pass insane partisan BS.  Love it or hate there is no doubt, it is a moderating tool.  In this day and age I would worry greatly about the ramifications of removing it or even altering it, following the much criticized slippery slope theory.  

 

LOL...the "wild swings" argument that if we allow majority rules that we will get violent and wild swings in policies every time the government changes.  I love the American mythology that is totally devoid from any analysis.  

You know a lot of countries have a democratic system where the majority just runs roughshod over the minority to enact their agenda, right?  In fact that is what we call DEMOCRACY.  England even got so sick of their gas bags in the upper chamber that they just stopped listening to them.  

You know what STOPS "wild swings" and partisan BS?  VOTERS....  VOTERS get pissed when you start messing around with stuff too much and they actually pay attention and vote you out of office.  You don't need to elevate an inadvertent mistake to mythological status to keep crazy politicians from getting elected.  Honestly it is probably the opposite...since we can't get anything done in the senate there is no reason not to elect nut cases since the chamber isn't interested in governing and only does parliamentary maneuvers and speeches.

The senate is a plutocratic anti democratic institution that was put in place specifically to protect the interests of elites (like the founders) against the democratic majority.  The filibuster just entrenches the minority of a minority in further power to give them veto power over democratic governance.  

Right now we need voting rights and anti coup legislation to try to not become a dictatorship and to ensure people actually even respond to congressional subpoenas without the executive and legislative branch being involved.  Thankfully we have the filibuster to stop these NUTTY policy swings!  

Sassy Red Wine GIF by Married At First Sight

 

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4 hours ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

 

It was never that complicated.  The D's had the ability to raise the debt ceiling at any point in time they felt like it and knew how to do so.  The filibuster was a once again a boogeyman that only the dumbest people who think they follow politics fell for.  Typical.  You know somebody is dumb as dirt when they argue things like ending the filibuster.  Pretty  much a nonstarter in any conversation, you know the individual is a piece of poop hanging from an ass hair.

Few have argued ending the filibuster.  Many have argued for reforming it back to what it once was.   

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2 hours ago, HR_Poke said:

What's the point of forcing them to talk? Results are the same, and now they can do it faster.

One is visible once puts the spotlight on the person doing the filibuster.  All the filibuster in its current form does is increase the impact of money in politics.  

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2 hours ago, HR_Poke said:

What's the point of forcing them to talk? Results are the same, and now they can do it faster.

Fun fact, nothing else could get done when it was a talking filibuster. No oversight hearings, no nomination hearings, no other votes, nothing could happen until the filibuster ended.

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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4 hours ago, happycamper said:

haven't paid attention to gop senators for a minute but seems to be mostly safe seat bigwigs, that your guys read too?

And retirees. They weren’t even going to do a filibuster on the stop gap bill but Ted Cruz still thinks he’s gonna be President.

Martin Short Cuckoo GIF by tylaum

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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8 hours ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

And retirees. They weren’t even going to do a filibuster on the stop gap bill but Ted Cruz still thinks he’s gonna be President.

Martin Short Cuckoo GIF by tylaum

That guy is nuts.  You listen to how ok he is with removing the filibuster, and it pretty much solidifies how much we need it

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8 hours ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

Fun fact, nothing else could get done when it was a talking filibuster. No oversight hearings, no nomination hearings, no other votes, nothing could happen until the filibuster ended.

That is why it just needs to be done away with so it would be just like many US States and most other democracies around the world.  The Senate already spends most of its time just doing "busy work" and they spend half of president's term filling the time with confirming nominees.  The other part of the time goes to confirming judges.  That leads them to a pathetic legislative set of accomplishments like we have here in the 117th congress where much of the laws are just to punt to give themselves extensions to do their jobs and to do innocuous things like naming Post Offices that will not jeopardize their cushy 6 years terms with voters.  Here are the "accomplishments" of the legislature in the filibuster era with unified control of the levers of government:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_acts_of_the_117th_United_States_Congress

Furthermore, the filibuster leads to bad government because we have to stuff a crapload of random laws together in some giant mess called a reconciliation bill in order to get it passed.  Bills for consideration should narrow and germane to a single narrow topic and receive an up or down vote.  For example, if you think billionaires should have to pay 39.6% on capital gains and dividend income so their tax rate is more in line with their secretary you should just have a bill that speaks to that narrow topic and every senator should vote on it and have to stand by their vote when they are re-elected.  "Tough votes" is supposed to be a feature and not a bug of democratic representation yet they never vote on anything of substance because of the filibuster!  How about instead of term limits you just make these guys vote every once in a while!:shrug:  The solution to overreach by the majority is punishment by voters, not a system to purposefully throw sand in the gears of effective government to protect voters from themselves.  

Let's look at the Texas abortion law as an example.  The Republican dog finally caught the car on that one.  HUGE majorities of the country think the law went too far when it actually got enacted.  That is why Republicans love having Roe in place...they can grandstand and rail against the court decision but NEVER have to actually put legislation in place to ban abortion.  If Republicans actually were able to implement their nutty religious laws they would be thrown out of office quickly and the law would be reversed.  

The filibuster just leads to bad governance all around and that is why it wasn't put in the constitution.  The founders specifically excluded it because they already knew supermajority requirements didn't work because of the failures of the articles of confederation.  Unfortunately we are having to re-prove this theory through the school of hard knocks when nearly every democracy around the world and our founding fathers already have demonstrated what a failure supermajority requirements are for regular legislation.  

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2 hours ago, HR_Poke said:

That guy is nuts.  You listen to how ok he is with removing the filibuster, and it pretty much solidifies how much we need it

To me it looks like his body was taken over by an alien a la this guy:

 

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Thay Haif Said: Quhat Say Thay? Lat Thame Say

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