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mugtang

Debt ceiling

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The issue here is that neither side has the best interests of the people in their minds when making a decision.  On both sides it is all about getting reelected (staying in power), making money, and staying in power (which means the other guys aren't in power).  They don't give a RF about what they are doing to the people or the economy  or anyone other than themselves.  

This happens on both sides... its both dems & repubs.... and the sad thing is they have convinced those who vote for them that what they do is for the people on their side.  All you have to do is read this thread and see the number of people defending their 'team.'

This is absolutely just as much a dem thing as a repub thing.  In my estimation the only answer seems to be strict term limits and prohibiting former congress people from becoming lobbyists.  But those in control won't vote for that so seems we are stuck with this continued BS.

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https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/09/22/what-congress-forgets-about-the-debt-limit-513528

To be clear, in asking for a boost to the debt limit, the Biden administration isn’t asking Congress to pay for new programs. It’s asking Congress to finance initiatives the government has already authorized and costs it has already incurred — including $7.8 trillion in debt that the Trump administration racked up in just four years, principally owing to tax cuts for corporations and wealthy earners that Republicans approved on a party-line vote.

The Republican Party has wielded the debt limit as a partisan cudgel since 2009. When a Republican president is in power, they happily rely on bipartisan congressional support to ensure the full faith and credit of the U.S. government. When a Democrat occupies the White House, they weaponize the debt limit and refuse to participate in its adjustment. It’s a tale of unabashed partisanship — but by now, it’s a familiar tale.

The U.S. government has always borrowed money to finance its operations. The total amount of outstanding debt hovered below $100 million in the years prior to 1860 but rose to over $2.7 billion during the Civil War. By the end of the 19th century, it stood at roughly $2 billion, a figure that more or less remained steady until World War I, when military mobilization necessitated a wave of borrowing, causing the national debt to balloon to $27 billion.

Fast forward to 2021. After adding $7.8 trillion to the public debt in just four years, between 2017 and 2021, Republicans have rediscovered their commitment to fiscal probity. Speaking for his party, Minority Leader Mitch McConnell has made clear that GOP senators will provide not a single vote to raise the debt ceiling, even though the government risks a default on its obligations as soon as October — and even though the very need for an adjustment owes to spending and tax cuts that McConnell’s party approved between 2017 and 2021.

It matters little to McConnell that his caucus enabled Donald Trump to grow the deficit in percentage terms by more than every other president except George W. Bush and Abraham Lincoln.

But the political theater currently playing itself out on Capitol Hill places in sharp relief a core truth: The perennial debate over whether Congress should pay for what Congress already spent has become a political charade — entirely divorced from the original intent of the debt ceiling. Conceived to help presidents meet the demands of national emergencies and to ensure that the government can pay bills that Congress has already racked up, the debt ceiling has become a blunt instrument in the hands of a radical and destructive minority.

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https://www.npr.org/2021/09/24/1031701538/congress-debt-ceiling-explainer

So where did it this debt limit come from?

It came from Congress. It was imposed a century ago, in 1917, at the beginning of World War I. It was meant to placate those members of Congress who either opposed the war itself (as many German-Americans and Irish-Americans did) or opposed putting its cost "on the cuff" (today we might say "on our national VISA card"). The original ceiling — $1 billion — was an entirely arbitrary number. But it represented a stupendous amount of money at the time, more than twice what the government had spent in 1916. So it seemed sure to cover any imaginable contingencies, even as it raised eyebrows and objections from fiscal conservatives in both parties.

Two decades later, in 1939, with World War II raging elsewhere and threatening to involve the U.S., Congress agreed to revise the debt ceiling mechanism to give the Treasury a bit more leeway. And we have been operating with versions and permutations of that revision ever since.

The latest, in 2017, set a limit of $22 trillion. But it also allowed for a suspension of the limit, under which the U.S. has since borrowed roughly $6.5 trillion more.

When did the debt ceiling start to matter?

So the federal debt — the accumulation of all the annual deficits of the federal government — reached $1 trillion around 1980 and became a very big campaign issue for Ronald Reagan, who got elected that year.

"Today the debt is $934 billion," he said in a speech from the Oval Office on February 5, 1981. "So-called temporary increases or extensions in the debt ceiling have been allowed 21 times in these 10 years, and now I've been forced to ask for another increase in the debt ceiling or the government will be unable to function past the middle of February — and I've only been here 16 days."

Reagan had idealized government declining during his administration — but it did not. Not even close. Spending grew, revenues were reduced by tax cuts. Deficits continued and expanded. So the cumulative debt got bigger. In fact, the federal debt reached $3 trillion by the end of the 1980s — still the only decade in history in which the national debt tripled.

Can the government just get rid of the debt ceiling to avoid these fights?

Arguably, losing the limit would simply remove the fig leaf that has concealed the ongoing practice of ever-greater borrowing. But if we assume it's politically unpalatable to raise the limit, it seems truly distasteful to eliminate it entirely.

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https://www.factcheck.org/2021/09/debt-limit-qa/

Democrats accuse the Republicans of hypocrisy. “This is the same Leader McConnell who urged Democrats and Republicans to support raising the debt ceiling when Donald Trump was president, and he was majority leader,” Schumer said in a floor speech on Sept. 20, noting that the Democrats gave support for all three of those bills and adding that “at least one of those times was when the House, the Senate, and the presidency were controlled by Republicans.”

In September 2017, Democrats did support suspending the debt limit when Republicans controlled Congress and the White House.

Raising the debt limit, Democratic leaders say, is needed to allow the federal government to pay for past spending bills — not future spending, as Republicans have claimed.

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35 minutes ago, UNLV2001 said:

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/09/22/what-congress-forgets-about-the-debt-limit-513528

To be clear, in asking for a boost to the debt limit, the Biden administration isn’t asking Congress to pay for new programs. It’s asking Congress to finance initiatives the government has already authorized and costs it has already incurred — including $7.8 trillion in debt that the Trump administration racked up in just four years, principally owing to tax cuts for corporations and wealthy earners that Republicans approved on a party-line vote.

The Republican Party has wielded the debt limit as a partisan cudgel since 2009. When a Republican president is in power, they happily rely on bipartisan congressional support to ensure the full faith and credit of the U.S. government. When a Democrat occupies the White House, they weaponize the debt limit and refuse to participate in its adjustment. It’s a tale of unabashed partisanship — but by now, it’s a familiar tale.

The U.S. government has always borrowed money to finance its operations. The total amount of outstanding debt hovered below $100 million in the years prior to 1860 but rose to over $2.7 billion during the Civil War. By the end of the 19th century, it stood at roughly $2 billion, a figure that more or less remained steady until World War I, when military mobilization necessitated a wave of borrowing, causing the national debt to balloon to $27 billion.

Fast forward to 2021. After adding $7.8 trillion to the public debt in just four years, between 2017 and 2021, Republicans have rediscovered their commitment to fiscal probity. Speaking for his party, Minority Leader Mitch McConnell has made clear that GOP senators will provide not a single vote to raise the debt ceiling, even though the government risks a default on its obligations as soon as October — and even though the very need for an adjustment owes to spending and tax cuts that McConnell’s party approved between 2017 and 2021.

It matters little to McConnell that his caucus enabled Donald Trump to grow the deficit in percentage terms by more than every other president except George W. Bush and Abraham Lincoln.

But the political theater currently playing itself out on Capitol Hill places in sharp relief a core truth: The perennial debate over whether Congress should pay for what Congress already spent has become a political charade — entirely divorced from the original intent of the debt ceiling. Conceived to help presidents meet the demands of national emergencies and to ensure that the government can pay bills that Congress has already racked up, the debt ceiling has become a blunt instrument in the hands of a radical and destructive minority.

Why are you linking to a guy who pushed the Russian collusion hoax for 3 years straight?    Far leftist rants are not real facts.

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21 minutes ago, x97 said:

Why are you linking to a guy who pushed the Russian collusion hoax for 3 years straight?    Far leftist rants are not real facts.

Okay, so what of the above wasn't a fact?

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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1 hour ago, Someone Else said:

The issue here is that neither side has the best interests of the people in their minds when making a decision.  On both sides it is all about getting reelected (staying in power), making money, and staying in power (which means the other guys aren't in power).  They don't give a RF about what they are doing to the people or the economy  or anyone other than themselves.  

This happens on both sides... its both dems & repubs.... and the sad thing is they have convinced those who vote for them that what they do is for the people on their side.  All you have to do is read this thread and see the number of people defending their 'team.'

This is absolutely just as much a dem thing as a repub thing.  In my estimation the only answer seems to be strict term limits and prohibiting former congress people from becoming lobbyists.  But those in control won't vote for that so seems we are stuck with this continued BS.

Man that shit has always been true, yet there was still always bipartisan support to raise the debt ceiling, regardless of which party was in power.

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The republicans have to fight the libs, that is the only policy that matters to these voters and the debt ceiling is a lib thing to them. So we have to go through this song and dance. 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, toonkee said:

The republicans have to fight the libs, that is the only policy that matters to these voters and the debt ceiling is a lib thing to them. So we have to go through this song and dance. 

Sadly that's where the entire party is now.........all the republicans have to do to appease their cult is bow to trump at every moment, offer no policies or ideas other than "owning the libs"

 

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2 hours ago, happycamper said:

Okay, so what of the above wasn't a fact?

He's pushing the lie that the debt ceiling request has nothing to do with current spending (i.e. bills passed or in discussion by this current House or Senate) or future spending.   To suggest that has nothing to do with it is straight up abhorrently dishonest.  You know it and I know it so why continue to lie about it?

 

That said, why did you slap me with a 1 day ban?   You ignored the email asking for an explanation.

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1 hour ago, toonkee said:

The republicans have to fight the libs, that is the only policy that matters to these voters and the debt ceiling is a lib thing to them. So we have to go through this song and dance. 

 

 

I mean once over half of the Republican House caucus refused to certify the election results it should have been clear to everybody that they will oppose whatever they can, simply because they can. 

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1 hour ago, UNLV2001 said:

Just political theatre for republicans :shrug:  They are more into chaos & power grabs - not governing or putting the USA before their petty wants 

Image

Not a chance in the world this would be okay if a D was next to the name.  This is the real reason I am so opposed to this political party bullshit.  This bullshit is so against Americans that any politician who does this, either side, is being un-American, and tar and feathers would be perfectly fine in my book.  +++++ these gotdam parties, and those who worship at their altars.

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1 hour ago, East Coast Aztec said:

Not a chance in the world this would be okay if a D was next to the name.  This is the real reason I am so opposed to this political party bullshit.  This bullshit is so against Americans that any politician who does this, either side, is being un-American, and tar and feathers would be perfectly fine in my book.  +++++ these gotdam parties, and those who worship at their altars.

in the 2017 debt ceiling vote, every democrat voted for it as did most republicans - there's only one party making these debt ceiling votes political 

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4 hours ago, SalinasSpartan said:

Man that shit has always been true, yet there was still always bipartisan support to raise the debt ceiling, regardless of which party was in power.

Look, I'm actually a Democrat and, yes, on this particular issue the GOP are being A$$H0^&s.  But, honestly, I'm getting sick of all of this. Years ago the system we had worked reasonably well.  Neither party got exactly what they wanted but at least some things got done.  Now, nothing gets done at all... ever... it's just one big power grab as opposed to doing what needs to be done.

Sorry... I'll end my rant now.

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8 minutes ago, Someone Else said:

Look, I'm actually a Democrat and, yes, on this particular issue the GOP are being A$$H0^&s.  But, honestly, I'm getting sick of all of this. Years ago the system we had worked reasonably well.  Neither party got exactly what they wanted but at least some things got done.  Now, nothing gets done at all... ever... it's just one big power grab as opposed to doing what needs to be done.

Sorry... I'll end my rant now.

O Democrats love BoTh SiDeSiNg things too.

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39 minutes ago, UNLV2001 said:

in the 2017 debt ceiling vote, every democrat voted for it as did most republicans - there's only one party making these debt ceiling votes political 

On this, it falls on the GOP (actually, it's been a lot of GOP in recent times).  But I don't care which side does it, I am speaking in general.

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7 minutes ago, East Coast Aztec said:

On this, it falls on the GOP (actually, it's been a lot of GOP in recent times).  But I don't care which side does it, I am speaking in general.

These debt votes have been regular things since WWI era - it's only been a political football since the republicans made it one under Obama - Think Mitch McConnell 

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