Conference Realignment thread

[Headbutt]

On 2/16/2024 at 2:56 PM, AztecSU said:

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but the MW did what is typical upon notification of a departing conference member. You withhold payments and only payout net after penalties... Is that not how all the other conferences have handled this scenario? 

No, it's not.  It's been negotiable in many instances.  Gloria couldn't allow that in this instance.  I always felt that SDSU would end up in the Pac, just that it wouldn't be easy.  JD Wicker stated publicly that they flat couldn't afford the penalty involved with giving short notice.

Today is a whole new ball game.

[Beaver-Poke]

On 2/16/2024 at 11:43 AM, 818SUDSFan said:

I'll grant you that first comment. As for your second, in any capacity? In just about any metric, SDSU was more deserving of Pac membership than OSU and WSU with SDSU having considerable potential to widen that gap going forward.

Other than men's basketball, there is no major sport where SDSU is better than Oregon State. Football? Please, OSU has kicked your ass four times in a row, most recently this past season. Your last win in the series was in 1975. Baseball? Three NCAA titles and six CWS appearances in the last 18 years. Soccer? OSU was a Final Four team in 2023. WBB? OSU is 11th in the just-released NCAA seeding. Softball? OSU was in the WCWS three years ago. OSU was in the precursor to the Pac-12 six years before SDSC was even founded.

I'll be happy to be in the same conference, if it comes to that. I would have welcomed you into the Pac-12 last year, had that happened. But in no universe is SDSU "more deserving" of a spot in that league than the Beavers. 

[Spot50B]

On 2/16/2024 at 6:42 PM, Beaver-Poke said:

Other than men's basketball, there is no major sport where SDSU is better than Oregon State. Football? Please, OSU has kicked your ass four times in a row, most recently this past season. Your last win in the series was in 1975. Baseball? Three NCAA titles and six CWS appearances in the last 18 years. Soccer? OSU was a Final Four team in 2023. WBB? OSU is 11th in the just-released NCAA seeding. Softball? OSU was in the WCWS three years ago. OSU was in the precursor to the Pac-12 six years before SDSC was even founded.

I'll be happy to be in the same conference, if it comes to that. I would have welcomed you into the Pac-12 last year, had that happened. But in no universe is SDSU "more deserving" of a spot in that league than the Beavers. 

I guess we'll see how it all pans out after OSU and WSU have similar revenue streams to the top third of the Mountain West.

[Destiny Dutch]

On 2/16/2024 at 10:56 AM, NorCalCoug said:

SDSU fans may disagree here.  They had a real shot at joining that league had it survived.

 

Yes. A lot of UNLV fans feel that way. However a lot of people are missing the inevitability of "national conferences" on the P4 level - once the Big 10 became "omnipotent" and secured all their time zones. I believe that Colorado was inevitable. Once Colorado left, Arizona was inevitable - even though Oregon and UW sprinted to get out the door first rather than be starting over at 8 teams.  

I may be biased but I think SDSU and UNLV (to get to 10) - and Colorado State and Boise State or SMU (to get to 12)- would have been enough to restore the Pac 12 at a solid 12 teams. I think what stopped that from happening is there were too much gravity pulling teams nationally in the Big 10 and Big 12.

[Destiny Dutch]

On 2/16/2024 at 11:01 AM, utenation said:

The P10 Presidents fell on their own swords on this one. Nothing more. 

 

It's way more nuanced than this take and I think the ACC Presidents will find themselves just as helpless as the Pac 12 Presidents found themselves... as the ACC inevitably loses teams to the Big 10, Big 12, and SEC. The model changed with the Big 10 deal (national coverage) and the Pac 12 Presidents were powerless and the ACC Presidents are powerless.

[Destiny Dutch]

On 2/16/2024 at 1:08 PM, Motown Monty said:

If you are going by "perfect fit" in the PAC12, I always believed that San Diego State belonged in the PAC, but that UCLA and USC were to scared to add a so cal recruiting competitor so they blocked the Aztecs

 

Why aren't SDSU and UNLV the "perfect fit" as foundational pieces to the MWC? These two universities always seemed better together to me.

[Destiny Dutch]

On 2/16/2024 at 12:59 PM, Motown Monty said:

I was thinking about how the latest round of expansion really identified the actual value and prestige of certain P5 schools.  Here are the schools that reclassified to new conferences.

 

The HUBRIS in your post about "prestige" is actually a big part of why the Pac 12 was a rudderless Titanic that was bound for the iceberg. The world changed for the Pac 12 when the LA schools left but before that happened the USC President actually killed the conference when she shot down expansion when the Big 12 was vulnerable.

Is it possible that SDSU could've joined a depleted Pac 12? I'd argue not. The lone chance the Pac 12 had was to get those Big 12 schools before that - because they would have made it a P4.

That didn't happen due to HUBRIS. The Big 12 is now positioned nationally like the Big 10 is, and there is not a lot the ACC can do to stop the same thing from happening there aside from joining with the Pac2MWC.

 

[Spaztecs]

On 2/16/2024 at 9:56 AM, NorCalCoug said:

SDSU fans may disagree here.  They had a real shot at joining that league had it survived.

Nah, the scheduled vote on their invite was the real reason the Pac fell apart. OUW and CalFord were going to have none of that.

IIRC it was OSU and Utah that felt the Pac was worth more than the ESPN offer. Then, they discovered no other Major Network had interest.

[Spaztecs]

On 2/16/2024 at 2:56 PM, AztecSU said:

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but the MW did what is typical upon notification of a departing conference member. You withhold payments and only payout net after penalties... Is that not how all the other conferences have handled this scenario? 

That's what's in the MW bylaws.

[Big 12 Guy]

Some random observations....

1.  It appears Utah University's Big-12 angst in accepting the Big-12 as its conference home is not only caused by the demise of the PAC but also because BYU is their conference mate.  Colorado, Arizona, and Arizona State have moved on.

2.  I think it was the Arizona State President that was so strongly publiy touting that the PAC-12 was worth more money.

3.  Is Big-12 Commissioner Brett Yomark a genius as some Big-12 fans claim?  Well, handing out genius titles is a risky thing to do.  But Yomark realized the top priority was wrapping up a Big-12 TV contract asap.  But let's give credit to former Big-12 Commissioner Bob Bowlsby and the remaining BIg-12 Presidents.  They invited BYU, Houston, Cincinnati, and UCF into the Big-12 setting up Yomark to negotiate a strong TV contract.  Give Yomark credit for including that the Big-12 could add two P5 schools at the same amount of money as existing Big-12 schools.  That set up the successful invitations to Colorado and Arizona, the latter in a bad financial condition. 

4.  Did Big-12 conference fans claim they were worth more money than PAC?  For the vast majority of Big-12 fans, the opposite was true.  In fact, Big-12 Commissioner Bob Bowlsby publicly stated that the Big-12 would probably experience a 50% haircut on its existing TV contract with Texas and Oklahoma leaving.  But bringing in BYU, Houston, Cincinnati, and UCF increased the Big-12's population footprint by something like 45% and so the Big-12 obtained a bigger TV contract and position #3 behemoths SEC and B1G with ACC in deep trouble.

[818SUDSFan]

On 2/16/2024 at 5:42 PM, Beaver-Poke said:

Other than men's basketball, there is no major sport where SDSU is better than Oregon State. Football? Please, OSU has kicked your ass four times in a row, most recently this past season. Your last win in the series was in 1975. Baseball? Three NCAA titles and six CWS appearances in the last 18 years. Soccer? OSU was a Final Four team in 2023. WBB? OSU is 11th in the just-released NCAA seeding. Softball? OSU was in the WCWS three years ago. OSU was in the precursor to the Pac-12 six years before SDSC was even founded.

I'll be happy to be in the same conference, if it comes to that. I would have welcomed you into the Pac-12 last year, had that happened. But in no universe is SDSU "more deserving" of a spot in that league than the Beavers. 

I should have said RELEVANT metrics, meaning that non-revenue sports simply don't matter. In football, despite your school's lengthier existence, SDSU has more victories: https://www.winsipedia.com/ranking/all-time-wins In men's basketball, for the last two decades, SDSU has been vastly superior to Oregon State as you concede. And although you didn't mention academics, over about that same period of time, SDSU has been higher ranked by USNWR than Oregon State.

Anyway, just as your intent wasn't to demean SDSU, my goal wasn't to demean OSU, simply to rebut what I inferred was the other poster's tacit assertion that no MWC school warranted Pac-12 admission after the USC and UCLA left.

[Beaver-Poke]

On 2/17/2024 at 7:44 AM, Spaztecs said:

Nah, the scheduled vote on their invite was the real reason the Pac fell apart. OUW and CalFord were going to have none of that.

IIRC it was OSU and Utah that felt the Pac was worth more than the ESPN offer. Then, they discovered no other Major Network had interest.

It was Utah. OSU and WSU each would have been more than happy with $30 million and an intact Pac-10, and they both signed the GOR plan to accept the Apple bid the night before the league finally imploded when UW and UO left for the Big Ten for 50 cents on the dollar. 

[Motown Monty]

On 2/16/2024 at 11:49 AM, RSF said:

And you'd be wrong at this point. 

The money is better in the Big 12, but much like with the P12 not enough to make a difference.  And both conferences have a GOR, so nobody's going anywhere currently.  When the inevitable fracturing of the ACC occurs, it won't be ACC raiding the B12.  Because the ACC will lose its most valuable schools first, and nobody jumps conferences for less money unless they have to (like Stanford and Cal).

 

BTW...it wasnt Stanford and Cal that turned down the B12.  It was the other way around.

No I'd be correct at this point.   The ACC "at this point" is a better, more prestigious conference than the BIG12, which is why Stanford and Cal wouldn't even consider the BIG12, but joined the ACC which is miles away.

 

Trying to be objective:  

(1) ACC has much higher academic reputation than the BIG12 "at this point".    Is it even debatable?

(2) ACC "at this point" has more impressive programs at the top.   Clemson, Florida State, etc

(3) The difference in money between the BIG12 and ACC is not significant enough to matter.

 

My guess is that West Virginia and Cincinatti would prefer to be in the ACC than the BIG12 right now.   Can you name a single ACC team that would prefer to be in the BIG12?  Sure, the ACC might lose a few programs in the future.  But that is hypothetical right now.  

 

 

[RSF]

On 2/19/2024 at 11:56 AM, Motown Monty said:

No I'd be correct at this point.   The ACC "at this point in time" is a better, more prestigious conference than the BIG12, which is why Stanford and Cal wouldn't even consider the BIG12, but joined the ACC which is miles away.

 

I see you pretty much ignored most of the post.

 

Again, you got it backwards.  The Big 12 turned down Cal and Stanford.  And the Big 12 makes more money.  And that gap will widen over time.  Yeah, the ACC has a couple 'name' football teams.  But that's the only real advantage they have.  If you want to limit this to academics, fine, I wont argue the point.  Because its really not relevant.

 

where teams would prefer to be really isnt relevant either.  You think ANY of the Pac12 teams want to be where they are headed?

[Motown Monty]

On 2/19/2024 at 9:59 AM, RSF said:

Again, you got it backwards.  The Big 12 turned down Cal and Stanford.  And the Big 12 makes more money.  If you want to limit this to academics, fine, I wont argue the point.  Because its really not relevant.

The BIG12 turned down two schools that never expressed any interest in joining?  Sure, if that makes you feel better.

Or are you seriously stating that Stanford and Cal wanted to be a conference with "academic powers" Houston, UCF, Cincy, and 3 religious schools - BYU, TCU, and Baylor?

 

[RSF]

On 2/19/2024 at 12:01 PM, Motown Monty said:

The BIG12 turned down two schools that never expressed any interest in joining?  Sure, if that makes you feel better.

Or are you seriously stating that Stanford and Cal wanted to be a conference with "academic powers" Houston, UCF, Cincy, and 3 religious schools - BYU, TCU, and Baylor?

 

Yeah, they did express interest, but the Big 12 checkbook was closed.  Sorry to disappoint you.  This is not secret information.

 

 

Again...academics.

[Motown Monty]

On 2/19/2024 at 10:03 AM, RSF said:

Yeah, they did express interest, but the Big 12 checkbook was closed.  Sorry to disappoint you.  This is not secret information.

Again...academics.

 

Money?  you are grasping at peanuts

I kind of seems like you recognize that the ACC is a better conference to the BIG12 so you are grasping on to a couple million dollars to pretend that the BIG12 is superior to the ACC.

The irony is you sound a lot like AAC fans, who tried for years to argue that their conference was vastly superior to the MWC, because their TV deal was like $2M higher per year. 

 

[Motown Monty]

We should find a West Virginia fan and ask if their program would prefer to leave the BIG12 and join the ACC.   I wonder what they'd say?  Same for Cinci.

Then...find a single ACC school that wants to join the current BIG12.   It doesn't exist.

[RSF]

On 2/19/2024 at 12:07 PM, Motown Monty said:

 

Money?  you are grasping at peanuts

I kind of seems like you recognize that the ACC is a better conference so you are grasping on to a couple million dollars to pretend that the BIG12 is superior to the ACC.

The irony is you sound a lot like AAC fans, who tried for years to argue that their conference was vastly superior to the MWC, because their TV deal was like $2M higher per year. 

 

Not really.  Realignment is all about money.  Always has been.  It's funny that you seem to think I said anything about superiority.  

 

'Here and now', the 2 conferences are on the same footing.  As was the Pac 12.  All 3 conferences had close to the same contracts, and on the field were fairly close as well.   But here's the rub - the Big 12 has already lost its blue bloods.  So the Big 12 is what it is.  The ACC isn't - everybody is looking for the door (some tyring to beat it down).  And once that happens, the feeding frenzy will start.  The Big 10 and SEC will take the best 1st/2nd.  So when that happens - and who knows when that will be - who do think will be in a better position?

[RSF]

On 2/19/2024 at 12:10 PM, Motown Monty said:

We should find a West Virginia fan and ask if their program would prefer to leave the BIG12 and join the ACC.   I wonder what they'd say?  Same for Cinci.

Then...find a single ACC school that wants to join the current BIG12.   It doesn't exist.

Again, you're conflating issues.  I have no doubt that in a perfect world WV would want to be in the ACC.  No one is disputing otherwise.  But in case you havent noticed, it aint a perfect world.  I'm dealing with reality, and the reality is both B12 and the ACC are in survival mode.  Meanwhile, you seem to be the only one who doesn't think the clock is ticking on the ACC.  Stanford and Cal were desperate.  That's why they begged for an ACC spot, no matter the cost.  Otherwise, they'd be in the same position as WSU and OSU right now.  Oh, BTW....Louisville is in the ACC because the Big 12 turned them down to take WV.

 

 

https://www.si.com/college/stanford/football/reports-deny-connection-between-pac-12-schools-and-big-12-expansion