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CPslograd

Kabuki Theater

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Navy defends call for 1 destroyer in 2022 budget, tells Congress new contract coming - UPI.com

This is an example of why I have completely lost interest in politics.

For pretty much forever now.....

Well, let me rephrase that.  Ever since they kaiboshed the Zumwalt and went back to buying Burkes, we buy two a year.  One from Bath, and one from Ingals.  And to encourage competitive bids we will throw an extra DDG in on a block buy to the low bidder. (which is always Ingals, but since we want geographically dispersed naval shipyards, we also buy from Bath)

I know you will all say, we spend too much money on defense, blah blah blah.

Regardless, naval shipbuilding isn't like building windows.  There is only one buyer, the US Navy.  So if Bath isn't competitive on a bid, and you freeze them out, guess what happens?  The yard closes.  And you can't build a new naval shipyard overnight.  Losing one DDG obviously isn't going to close a yard, but the whole workforce is oriented around a specific build cycle.  If there is a slow down in work, then the yard will obviously downsize, and it's not like it's easy to get people to relocate to Maine to learn how to build Navy ships.

Anyway,this whole thing in the article is rubbish.   The USN puts one DDG in the budget, knowing damned well that Congress is going to appropriate for two.  I can almost live with that level of Kabuki.  But then they trot out Pentagon officials to "defend" a line item in a budget, that they know full well, isn't practical, and more importantly is politically impossible.  When all is said and done, there will be two DDG's.

GOP admin's do the same thing, it's not a partisan issue.  It just makes it hard to take government too seriously when they are lying to your face, all the while knowing that anyone who is educated on the topic knows damn well they are being lied too.  And this is just one thing I happen to know about, you know this is the case with a million things in a federal budget any given year.

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8 hours ago, CPslograd said:

Navy defends call for 1 destroyer in 2022 budget, tells Congress new contract coming - UPI.com

This is an example of why I have completely lost interest in politics.

For pretty much forever now.....

Well, let me rephrase that.  Ever since they kaiboshed the Zumwalt and went back to buying Burkes, we buy two a year.  One from Bath, and one from Ingals.  And to encourage competitive bids we will throw an extra DDG in on a block buy to the low bidder. (which is always Ingals, but since we want geographically dispersed naval shipyards, we also buy from Bath)

I know you will all say, we spend too much money on defense, blah blah blah.

Regardless, naval shipbuilding isn't like building windows.  There is only one buyer, the US Navy.  So if Bath isn't competitive on a bid, and you freeze them out, guess what happens?  The yard closes.  And you can't build a new naval shipyard overnight.  Losing one DDG obviously isn't going to close a yard, but the whole workforce is oriented around a specific build cycle.  If there is a slow down in work, then the yard will obviously downsize, and it's not like it's easy to get people to relocate to Maine to learn how to build Navy ships.

Anyway,this whole thing in the article is rubbish.   The USN puts one DDG in the budget, knowing damned well that Congress is going to appropriate for two.  I can almost live with that level of Kabuki.  But then they trot out Pentagon officials to "defend" a line item in a budget, that they know full well, isn't practical, and more importantly is politically impossible.  When all is said and done, there will be two DDG's.

GOP admin's do the same thing, it's not a partisan issue.  It just makes it hard to take government too seriously when they are lying to your face, all the while knowing that anyone who is educated on the topic knows damn well they are being lied too.  And this is just one thing I happen to know about, you know this is the case with a million things in a federal budget any given year.

It’s a primary problem with government. There is no incentive or accountability to be efficient. No problem it’s only tax money, we can either get more or print more. We would be put in jail for things our government does. Social security to name one has become one big mismanaged Ponzi scheme. 

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12 hours ago, CPslograd said:

Navy defends call for 1 destroyer in 2022 budget, tells Congress new contract coming - UPI.com

This is an example of why I have completely lost interest in politics.

For pretty much forever now.....

Well, let me rephrase that.  Ever since they kaiboshed the Zumwalt and went back to buying Burkes, we buy two a year.  One from Bath, and one from Ingals.  And to encourage competitive bids we will throw an extra DDG in on a block buy to the low bidder. (which is always Ingals, but since we want geographically dispersed naval shipyards, we also buy from Bath)

I know you will all say, we spend too much money on defense, blah blah blah.

Regardless, naval shipbuilding isn't like building windows.  There is only one buyer, the US Navy.  So if Bath isn't competitive on a bid, and you freeze them out, guess what happens?  The yard closes.  And you can't build a new naval shipyard overnight.  Losing one DDG obviously isn't going to close a yard, but the whole workforce is oriented around a specific build cycle.  If there is a slow down in work, then the yard will obviously downsize, and it's not like it's easy to get people to relocate to Maine to learn how to build Navy ships.

Anyway,this whole thing in the article is rubbish.   The USN puts one DDG in the budget, knowing damned well that Congress is going to appropriate for two.  I can almost live with that level of Kabuki.  But then they trot out Pentagon officials to "defend" a line item in a budget, that they know full well, isn't practical, and more importantly is politically impossible.  When all is said and done, there will be two DDG's.

GOP admin's do the same thing, it's not a partisan issue.  It just makes it hard to take government too seriously when they are lying to your face, all the while knowing that anyone who is educated on the topic knows damn well they are being lied too.  And this is just one thing I happen to know about, you know this is the case with a million things in a federal budget any given year.

Interesting thread...  to what extent do the build ships for allies to stay busy?

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31 minutes ago, TheSanDiegan said:

Whenever I hear or read "Kabuki theater" it reminds me of a Kids in the Hall sketch. Great thread btw.

Love kids in the hall. I did this bit with my 7 year old yesterday because he was trying to sell me some old toys instead of donating them to Goodwill. He didn't get the reference but I had a good time.

 

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15 minutes ago, sactowndog said:

Interesting thread...  to what extent do the build ships for allies to stay busy?

We don't export naval vessels anymore, with just a few exceptions.  The Saudis bought some corvettes being built in Wisconsin, and the second tier yards in the Gulf export to countries like Egypt and Iraq.

That's a whole nother topic.  Why do the French, Dutch, and Spaniards successfully export navy ships but the US doesn't?  We are very successful at exporting jets and helicopters, why not ships?  There are reasons for it and there are some great articles about that, but it would take an essay to explain.  I'll dig up some links and post them.

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I'm confused. Is the argument here that we don't order enough ships --- regardless of whether they're actually necessary --- in order to keep the shipyards in business?

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7 hours ago, retrofade said:

I'm confused. Is the argument here that we don't order enough ships --- regardless of whether they're actually necessary --- in order to keep the shipyards in business?

No.  The point is its all a show.

The DoD is asking for 1 DDG even though they want two, they know congress will appropriate two, and the USN is going to the Hill saying one is fine, even though they know its not practical, and not even what they want or need. And the only reason they are asking for one, is because they know congress will give them two, so its a way to get other stuff they want in the budget. Hence the title Kabuki Theater.

And yes, you have to factor industrial capacity into procurement, otherwise you cant have competitive bids in the future.  There is no competitive bidding on CVNs for instance, because HII is the only one left who can build them.

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1 hour ago, CPslograd said:

Nice call. Pop in more often with line item type stuff. This place could use it. 

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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On 7/13/2021 at 12:52 AM, East Coast Aztec said:

And the funny thing is I doubt this was actually needed to begin with.

That’s more of a policy question than what I’m getting at here in the thread.  By the DoDs and USNs own strategic requirements analysis they need the destroyer.  If they want to procure less destroyers they need to change the strategic requirements and deployment schedules of the Navy.

It’s the same deal with CVNs.  People always ask do we really need 10 aircraft carriers?  Well, no , if we are going to keep up our current deployment schedule we need 12.  If you want less carriers then change the deployment schedule and reduce presence.  Those are the options.

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https://news.usni.org/2021/10/20/senate-appropriators-call-for-gao-probe-into-navys-budget-tactic-to-deliberately-underfund-programs
 

Congress getting fed up.  Everyone always wants to blame The Hill for procurement issues but the services deserve their share of the blame too.  I’m with Congress on this one.

https://news.usni.org/2021/10/20/senate-appropriators-call-for-gao-probe-into-navys-budget-tactic-to-deliberately-underfund-programs

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Just now, HR_Poke said:

I don't understand why we are buying an outdated design of destroyer.

That question requires an essay to answer.

Cliff notes version is that when the navy designed the Burke replacement there were no other blue water navies of note that weren’t allies.  So they designed a ship for a world that no longer exists.  Google Zumwalt DDG and there is lots of additional info on that fiasco.

also, it’s not the same Burke as the original, just like the B52s are t the same planes they were when they were built.  It’s a truck to carry sensors and missile.

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25 minutes ago, CPslograd said:

That question requires an essay to answer.

Cliff notes version is that when the navy designed the Burke replacement there were no other blue water navies of note that weren’t allies.  So they designed a ship for a world that no longer exists.  Google Zumwalt DDG and there is lots of additional info on that fiasco.

also, it’s not the same Burke as the original, just like the B52s are t the same planes they were when they were built.  It’s a truck to carry sensors and missile.

I get that it's somewhat updated. And I followed the Zumwalt fiasco.  I just thought they were focusing on the design that comes after the zumwalt instead of these older designs.

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On 6/26/2021 at 1:48 PM, CPslograd said:

We don't export naval vessels anymore, with just a few exceptions.  The Saudis bought some corvettes being built in Wisconsin, and the second tier yards in the Gulf export to countries like Egypt and Iraq.

That's a whole nother topic.  Why do the French, Dutch, and Spaniards successfully export navy ships but the US doesn't?  We are very successful at exporting jets and helicopters, why not ships?  There are reasons for it and there are some great articles about that, but it would take an essay to explain.  I'll dig up some links and post them.

Seems like Taiwan could use a few. 

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10 hours ago, sactowndog said:

Seems like Taiwan could use a few. 

Taiwan is perfectly capable of building the surface ships they need, although they benefit from Western systems, and often use them.  Not always though, domestic politics often mandate their own products even though buying Western rsystems would be better and cheaper in most cases.

Submarines are what they really need to import, specifically relatively small conventional subs.  Which we don’t build.  And no one else will sell to them for fear of economic sanctions from 🇨🇳 .

Dubya agreed to build and sell them SSKs, but for multiple reasons it never happened.  I can dig up some old links if you are interested on that.  
 

Now Taiwan is trying to build their own, which will take forever and be very expensive with an inferior end product.  US defense contractors are helping them.  But Germany and France have been building SSKs for a over a hundred years, Taiwan isn’t going to build competitive  boats with their first crack at it. 

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