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Akkula

Wealthy Tax Scams

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@bornontheblue Who told you that the wealthy were fleecing everyone by never realizing their gains on long held assets?

It looks like Bezos, Musk, and Buffet are getting piles of wealth but never selling any of their shares and thus never have to pay any taxes!  They just take a loan on the value of their assets and never sell anything!   It isn't enough that we give them favorable tax treatment on Long-Term capital gains....they don't want to pay any tax so they just never sell any of their stock.  I can't say I blame them....they are "smart" just like Donald Trump.  It is too bad us working idiots don't just have a pile of assets to invest so we could pay zero too!

As I have said before we should be marking these assets to market on a yearly basis and they should pay tax on those gains every year.  It isn't like Tesla and Amazon stock is hard to price!

Another scam is the 1031 exchange that has come up recently.  Why should a wealthy real estate investor get to defer tax on the gains of a business property forever?  What makes real estate so special?  Why can't someone who invests in Amazon stock sale and buy Microsoft stock and say it is a "like/kind" investment and they shouldn't have to pay capital gains. 

The idea that people aren't taxed on an asset until it is sold needs to change.  It causes distortions and it causes people to hold on to an asset only for tax reasons when they should decide to liquidate it or invest it for business reasons.  There should be no giant tax hit for selling an investment if it isn't in your best interest any longer.  The only way to do that is to STOP the stupidity of not taxing the appreciation of an asset on a yearly basis or allowing people to claim a loss on a yearly basis as well.

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48 minutes ago, Akkula said:

@bornontheblue Who told you that the wealthy were fleecing everyone by never realizing their gains on long held assets?

It looks like Bezos, Musk, and Buffet are getting piles of wealth but never selling any of their shares and thus never have to pay any taxes!  They just take a loan on the value of their assets and never sell anything!   It isn't enough that we give them favorable tax treatment on Long-Term capital gains....they don't want to pay any tax so they just never sell any of their stock.  I can't say I blame them....they are "smart" just like Donald Trump.  It is too bad us working idiots don't just have a pile of assets to invest so we could pay zero too!

As I have said before we should be marking these assets to market on a yearly basis and they should pay tax on those gains every year.  It isn't like Tesla and Amazon stock is hard to price!

Another scam is the 1031 exchange that has come up recently.  Why should a wealthy real estate investor get to defer tax on the gains of a business property forever?  What makes real estate so special?  Why can't someone who invests in Amazon stock sale and buy Microsoft stock and say it is a "like/kind" investment and they shouldn't have to pay capital gains. 

The idea that people aren't taxed on an asset until it is sold needs to change.  It causes distortions and it causes people to hold on to an asset only for tax reasons when they should decide to liquidate it or invest it for business reasons.  There should be no giant tax hit for selling an investment if it isn't in your best interest any longer.  The only way to do that is to STOP the stupidity of not taxing the appreciation of an asset on a yearly basis or allowing people to claim a loss on a yearly basis as well.

You are a fool! 

Taxation of wealth is not legal, and not constitutional at the federal level. The federal government has very limited powers on how it can tax citizens , and income wasn't even allowed to be taxed up until 120 years ago. The 16th amendment only allowed for income tax, not wealth tax. Federal tax law is also well established with precedent on this,  that unrealized gains are not income.  Even if you could clear a wealth tax past the supreme court the logistics of taxing wealth would make it unfeasible when values are constantly changing. If the stock Market plummets and Bezos portfolio drops a couple billion in value does he get a huge write off of unrealized losses to be carried forward indefinitely to apply to future income or perhaps a refund of taxes paid on the same assets in prior years when they were worth more before a stock market crash. 

The section 1031 rules used to allow for many types of assets to be exchanged to defer taxes. That was until Trumps tax legislation limited it to only real estate. You are a fool. 

 

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3 minutes ago, bornontheblue said:

You are a fool! 

Taxation of wealth is not legal, and not constitutional at the federal level. The federal government has very limited powers on how it can tax citizens , and income wasn't even allowed to be taxed up until 120 years ago. The 16th amendment only allowed for income tax, not wealth tax. Federal tax law is also well established with precedent on this,  that unrealized gains are not income.  Even if you could clear a wealth tax past the supreme court the logistics of taxing wealth would make it unfeasible when values are constantly changing. If the stock Market plummets and Bezos portfolio drops a couple billion in value does he get a huge write off of unrealized losses, or perhaps a refund of taxes paid on the same assets in prior years when they were worth more before a stock market crash. 

The section 1031 rules used to allow for many types of assets to be exchanged to defer taxes. That was until Trumps tax legislation limited it to only real estate. You are a fool. 

Translation: I'm not filthy rich myself but I will defend to the death the right of those who are to never have to pay their fair share of federal taxes.

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9 minutes ago, 818SUDSFan said:

Translation: I'm not filthy rich myself but I will defend to the death the right of those who are to never have to pay their fair share of federal taxes.

Give me numbers. What is considered fair share? This term has always been used vaguely, and means nothing. 

If I have the following income amounts what would my fair share be for this simplified example 

Realized LT capital Gains 150,000

Realized LT Capital Losses (25,000)

Wages 750,000

Income from Pass through Entities 150,000

Section 179 Deductions: 10,500

Interest $1,000

Qualified Dividends 12,000

How Much Should I write the check out for to cover my fair share?

 

 

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39 minutes ago, bornontheblue said:

You are a fool! 

Taxation of wealth is not legal, and not constitutional at the federal level. The federal government has very limited powers on how it can tax citizens , and income wasn't even allowed to be taxed up until 120 years ago. The 16th amendment only allowed for income tax, not wealth tax. Federal tax law is also well established with precedent on this,  that unrealized gains are not income.  Even if you could clear a wealth tax past the supreme court the logistics of taxing wealth would make it unfeasible when values are constantly changing. If the stock Market plummets and Bezos portfolio drops a couple billion in value does he get a huge write off of unrealized losses to be carried forward indefinitely to apply to future income or perhaps a refund of taxes paid on the same assets in prior years when they were worth more before a stock market crash. 

The section 1031 rules used to allow for many types of assets to be exchanged to defer taxes. That was until Trumps tax legislation limited it to only real estate. You are a fool. 

 

Wealth is a static amount.   You have to have income to grow wealth.   Unrealized income is just fine to tax.  It is called "mark to market."

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1 minute ago, Akkula said:

Wealth is a static amount.   You have to have income to grow wealth.   Unrealized income is just fine to tax.  It is called "mark to market."

Any law taxiing unrealized gains would not survive a supreme court hearing. 

 

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Watch, they are going to try to raise the gas tax instead of making the wealthy pay the same percentage taxes as the poor. 

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17 minutes ago, Akkula said:

Watch, they are going to try to raise the gas tax instead of making the wealthy pay the same percentage taxes as the poor. 

Wealth tax is asinine.  All company compensation should be taxed as ordinary income, less 401k contributions, insurance benefits, etc.  

Favorable capital gains treatment should be limited to the creator investors of new assets, not investors in stock and other financial instruments.  Maybe only allow only if one can lose more than their investment.

And for the love of god, no non-cash deductions for landlords, and no deductions a homeowner can't deduct such as repairs and maintenance.  Neighborhoods are never improved by rentals and the unequal/ favorable tax treatment for landlords screws over families wanting their first house.

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49 minutes ago, modestobulldog said:

Wealth tax is asinine.  All company compensation should be taxed as ordinary income, less 401k contributions, insurance benefits, etc.  

Favorable capital gains treatment should be limited to the creator investors of new assets, not investors in stock and other financial instruments.  Maybe only allow only if one can lose more than their investment.

And for the love of god, no non-cash deductions for landlords, and no deductions a homeowner can't deduct such as repairs and maintenance.  Neighborhoods are never improved by rentals and the unequal/ favorable tax treatment for landlords screws over families wanting their first house.

Look, it you put in $100 billion in the bank and at the end of the year you had $120 Billion, we would call that $20 Billion in interest income.  However, if you put $100 billion into Amazon stock and had $120 billion at the end of the year we call that ZERO income for the year?  :shrug:  That doesn't make sense!

No wonder they used to have 90% tax rates and other assorted silliness back in the day.  They used to understand that these people expose nearly none of their actual income to actual taxation so they have to get a big bite at the apple for what is actually taxed in order to even get close to what the average joe would have to pay percentage wise.

I also think that all the cronyism for real estate and other preferred industries in the tax code is causing bubbles and pricing out families so that investors can keep rolling over deferred gains.  That money needs to be able to be liquidated and removed from the housing market, if that is the better business use.  Why are we giving real estate investors a special deal where they are the only one who doesn't have to get taxed on gains if they sell the asset?  If they had to mark it to market every year and pay any tax on the gain it wouldn't be such a big deal to have to do it all at once when they sell.

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1 hour ago, Akkula said:

Look, it you put in $100 billion in the bank and at the end of the year you had $120 Billion, we would call that $20 Billion in interest income.  However, if you put $100 billion into Amazon stock and had $120 billion at the end of the year we call that ZERO income for the year?  :shrug:  That doesn't make sense!

No wonder they used to have 90% tax rates and other assorted silliness back in the day.  They used to understand that these people expose nearly none of their actual income to actual taxation so they have to get a big bite at the apple for what is actually taxed in order to even get close to what the average joe would have to pay percentage wise.

I also think that all the cronyism for real estate and other preferred industries in the tax code is causing bubbles and pricing out families so that investors can keep rolling over deferred gains.  That money needs to be able to be liquidated and removed from the housing market, if that is the better business use.  Why are we giving real estate investors a special deal where they are the only one who doesn't have to get taxed on gains if they sell the asset?  If they had to mark it to market every year and pay any tax on the gain it wouldn't be such a big deal to have to do it all at once when they sell.

Congressmen, many of whom are wealthy themselves benefit in a lot of cases from the current tax code. Not only that they are getting perks from lobbyists, that are paid by the wealthy to rep their interests. They are just fine with the tax code. No reason for Congressmen to change it. In other words, those who have the gold make the rules. Your desire for a utopian society where everything is fair and just is an exercise in futility. But you go girl. 

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2 hours ago, modestobulldog said:

Wealth tax is asinine.  All company compensation should be taxed as ordinary income, less 401k contributions, insurance benefits, etc.  

Favorable capital gains treatment should be limited to the creator investors of new assets, not investors in stock and other financial instruments.  Maybe only allow only if one can lose more than their investment.

And for the love of god, no non-cash deductions for landlords, and no deductions a homeowner can't deduct such as repairs and maintenance.  Neighborhoods are never improved by rentals and the unequal/ favorable tax treatment for landlords screws over families wanting their first house.

So you are saying a property owner doesn’t get to deduct the cost of purchasing, or constructing an income producing asset over time  like any other business would. And by they couldnt deduct the cost of maintaining said asset. Commercial and residential  rental properties are a vital part of our economy, if you make tax laws that make producing those properties more expensive , all you do is increase the price of rent. Cmon , think this through 

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2 hours ago, grandjean87 said:

@Maji …do we need another primer her from Econ nerds on how to reorganize the federal tax system?

I'd like to read a particular user's thoughts on tax policy, but I can't remember his username. I'm pretty sure he's an economist too. He's a solid, but infrequent poster

Wouldn't mind your thoughts again either :)

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6 hours ago, Maji said:

I'd like to read a particular user's thoughts on tax policy, but I can't remember his username. I'm pretty sure he's an economist too. He's a solid, but infrequent poster

Wouldn't mind your thoughts again either :)

Well, we can sit and argue about what provisions of the tax code cause it so that the working poor and middle class pay a larger percentage of taxes than the wealthy but that isn't really the point.

Republicans and people like @bornontheblue believe this is a feature and not a bug and this is exactly the way things should be!  They believe in things like infrastructure but they don't believe the wealthy should kick in one thin dime extra to pay for it.  They believe we should either charge the working people higher gas taxes or make our kids pay for it and add to the deficit.

With all of the faux populism and racist distractions over the last 5 years the only thing of actual substance they got accomplished was to give a huge tax giveaway to the wealthy.  The faux populists have created quite a distraction so allow them to shovel more money to the oligarchy. 

With nearly everyone thinking the wealthy should pay at least as much as the workers as a percentage I cannot figure out why Biden and the Democrats are not more effective at clubbing Republicans like a baby seal.  Can you believe the utter lack of shame that Republicans have that their "line in the sand" is that they will not allow Jeff Bezos to pay even a little extra in tax to fund infrastructure?

At the end of the day it should be a very easy argument to make that the wealthy should be paying at least as much as the workers as a percentage of their income.  I don't understand why Democrats are so weak at making this point.....

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1 hour ago, Akkula said:

Well, we can sit and argue about what provisions of the tax code cause it so that the working poor and middle class pay a larger percentage of taxes than the wealthy but that isn't really the point.

Republicans and people like @bornontheblue believe this is a feature and not a bug and this is exactly the way things should be!  They believe in things like infrastructure but they don't believe the wealthy should kick in one thin dime extra to pay for it.  They believe we should either charge the working people higher gas taxes or make our kids pay for it and add to the deficit.

With all of the faux populism and racist distractions over the last 5 years the only thing of actual substance they got accomplished was to give a huge tax giveaway to the wealthy.  The faux populists have created quite a distraction so allow them to shovel more money to the oligarchy. 

With nearly everyone thinking the wealthy should pay at least as much as the workers as a percentage I cannot figure out why Biden and the Democrats are not more effective at clubbing Republicans like a baby seal.  Can you believe the utter lack of shame that Republicans have that their "line in the sand" is that they will not allow Jeff Bezos to pay even a little extra in tax to fund infrastructure?

At the end of the day it should be a very easy argument to make that the wealthy should be paying at least as much as the workers as a percentage of their income.  I don't understand why Democrats are so weak at making this point.....

The rich and the ultra rich already pay the lions share of federal tax collected.  I have no problem with infrastructure, if you find revenue neutral ways to pay for it. The federal government pisses away billions of dollars on a daily basis. Go cut something else we don't need instead of soaking the rich. 

Also nobody has answered my question in my Hypothetical situation about paying a fair share. 

 

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20 hours ago, bornontheblue said:

Give me numbers. What is considered fair share? This term has always been used vaguely, and means nothing. 

How 'bout a percentage of their actual paid income taxes which is similar to what Joe Average Middle Class American pays?

I don't know about you but the "true tax" my wife and I pay on our income is hella more than the ~3.4% apparently being paid by the richest 25 multi-billionaire Americans: https://www.snopes.com/articles/347473/billionaire-taxes/

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1 hour ago, bornontheblue said:

The rich and the ultra rich already pay the lions share of federal tax collected.  I have no problem with infrastructure, if you find revenue neutral ways to pay for it. The federal government pisses away billions of dollars on a daily basis. Go cut something else we don't need instead of soaking the rich. 

Also nobody has answered my question in my Hypothetical situation about paying a fair share.

So phucking what?

As to your second comment, see above.

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1 hour ago, bornontheblue said:

The rich and the ultra rich already pay the lions share of federal tax collected.  I have no problem with infrastructure, if you find revenue neutral ways to pay for it. The federal government pisses away billions of dollars on a daily basis. Go cut something else we don't need instead of soaking the rich. 

Also nobody has answered my question in my Hypothetical situation about paying a fair share. 

The rich pay the lions share because they control the lions share of the money? It’s not because the system is unfair. The system is built by the ultra-rich, for the ultra-rich.

I do agree that the government pisses away too much. But if I showed you a graph of what the budget is spent it’d go sideways. Russian and/or China are coming to get us.. or there’s too much entitlement in this country. 

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