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SalinasSpartan

Air Strikes in Syria

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2 hours ago, bsu_alum9 said:

And there was this.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/feb/20/libya-protests-benghazi-muammar-gaddafi

I don’t understand the logic that Socialist  strong-arm dictators are the only form of acceptable government in the ME. Do you and Joe think Turkey’s move away from democracy toward autocracy is going to be a good thing?

And y’all’s ad hominem attacks are bluerules level weak.  Have you even taken Organic Chemistry?

The discussion isn't about organic chemistry. The discussion is about Middle East and in particular Syria policy.

To answer your other question, no, it isn't a good thing. But you're glossing over details and making it seem as if the conditions are similar in every country. Turkey has an identity. It's mostly Turks and its mostly in Anatolia. Places like Syria and Iraq and Libya aren't that. They're lines drawn up in the sand, make believe places. So, for some place like Turkey to function, at least the appearance of a democracy can and has been the norm since Ataturk with a few hiccups here and there.

Places like Syria and Iraq and Libya don't have that identity to fall back on. There is no real "Syrian" just as there is no real "Iraqi" or "Lebanese" even. They drew lines up across the sand that roped disparate bands of people together in countries. Good luck trying to fashion some sort of national identity out of that. Whereas the Turks are ethnically similar (or are now since they drove all the Greeks out) with the exceptions of the Kurds, the problem doesn't exist.

In short a strongman is needed for those places to function by the nature of their creation post-Sykes/Picot. Turkey was the seat of the Ottoman Empire. There is a proud national identity there, and hence, no strongman is necessarily needed to function.

Erdogan is a Muslim tyrant.

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2 hours ago, bsu_alum9 said:

And there was this.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/feb/20/libya-protests-benghazi-muammar-gaddafi

I don’t understand the logic that Socialist  strong-arm dictators are the only form of acceptable government in the ME. Do you and Joe think Turkey’s move away from democracy toward autocracy is going to be a good thing?

And y’all’s ad hominem attacks are bluerules level weak.  Have you even taken Organic Chemistry?

Turkey has never been a democratic country; they've always had sham elections that up until Erdogan started running things, was more or less governed by a military junta. Sure, there may have been the appearnce that it was a free state, but pre-Erdogan, it was always a military dictatorship, more or less. The only difference between Turkey then and Turkey now is that Erdogan has chipped away at the secular state that was championed by Ataturk, and has done well to create an Islamic Republic dominated by AKP's one party rule...which has really been a trend that started in the 1990s and has culminated in the current mess we see the country in now. It's always been an illusion that there was any democracy in Turkey; it's either been the military of the Islamists. 

Democracy doesn't work in the Middle East, or at least doesn't as of now. There are too many minorities in the Middle East that would otherwise be wiped off the map, or forced into assbackwards serfdom (Assyrians, Kurds, Alawites, Druze, Circassians, etc., etc.). Because of this, you need someone who is an equal opportunity asshole to oppress them all and treat them equally shitty; otherwise you see a trend towards one-sect rule that unleashes a whole host of problems on the rest of the less-represented groups. 

Before you say, "But Metro, Syria is run by an Alawite, and its army is all Alawites, and...and...." the majority of the Syrian military is Sunni, though it is also backed by a number of Shi'ite militias currently. 

There isn't a successful democracy in the Middle East, outside of the Israeli Apartheid State. Every stable country is either a secular dictatorship (such as Syria) or a theocratic dictatorship (such as your friends in Saudi Arabia). 

 

 

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42 minutes ago, Joe from WY said:

The discussion isn't about organic chemistry. The discussion is about Middle East and in particular Syria policy.

To answer your other question, no, it isn't a good thing. But you're glossing over details and making it seem as if the conditions are similar in every country. Turkey has an identity. It's mostly Turks and its mostly in Anatolia. Places like Syria and Iraq and Libya aren't that. They're lines drawn up in the sand, make believe places. So, for some place like Turkey to function, democracy can and has been the norm since Ataturk with a few hiccups here and there.

Places like Syria and Iraq and Libya don't have that identity to fall back on. There is no real "Syrian" just as there is no real "Iraqi" or "Lebanese" even. They drew lines up across the sand that roped disparate bands of people together in countries. Good luck trying to fashion some sort of national identity out of that. Whereas the Turks are ethnically similar (or are now since they drove all the Greeks out) with the exceptions of the Kurds, the problem doesn't exist.

In short a strongman is needed for those places to function by the nature of their creation post-Sykes/Picot. Turkey was the seat of the Ottoman Empire. There is a proud national identity there, and hence, no strongman is needed to function.

Erdogan is a Muslim tyrant.

 

This is well said and a great post.

I do think we could be less douchey to each other here though, which I know sounds hypocritical as I can be and oft am douchebag extraordinaire 

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8 minutes ago, MetropolitanCowboy said:

Turkey has never been a democratic country; they've always had sham elections that up until Erdogan started running things, was more or less governed by a military junta. Sure, there may have been the appearnce that it was a free state, but pre-Erdogan, it was always a military dictatorship, more or less. The only difference between Turkey then and Turkey now is that Erdogan has chipped away at the secular state that was championed by Ataturk, and has done well to create an Islamic Republic dominated by AKP's one party rule...which has really been a trend that started in the 1990s and has culminated in the current mess we see the country in now. It's always been an illusion that there was any democracy in Turkey; it's either been the military of the Islamists. 

Democracy doesn't work in the Middle East, or at least doesn't as of now. There are too many minorities in the Middle East that would otherwise be wiped off the map, or forced into assbackwards serfdom (Assyrians, Kurds, Alawites, Druze, Circassians, etc., etc.). Because of this, you need someone who is an equal opportunity asshole to oppress them all and treat them equally shitty; otherwise you see a trend towards one-sect rule that unleashes a whole host of problems on the rest of the less-represented groups. 

Before you say, "But Metro, Syria is run by an Alawite, and its army is all Alawites, and...and...." the majority of the Syrian military is Sunni, though it is also backed by a number of Shi'ite militias currently. 

There isn't a successful democracy in the Middle East, outside of the Israeli Apartheid State. Every stable country is either a secular dictatorship (such as Syria) or a theocratic dictatorship (such as your friends in Saudi Arabia). 

 

 

 

This is a dark, horrible but sadly accurate post.

 

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31 minutes ago, MetropolitanCowboy said:

Turkey has never been a democratic country; they've always had sham elections that up until Erdogan started running things, was more or less governed by a military junta. Sure, there may have been the appearnce that it was a free state, but pre-Erdogan, it was always a military dictatorship, more or less. The only difference between Turkey then and Turkey now is that Erdogan has chipped away at the secular state that was championed by Ataturk, and has done well to create an Islamic Republic dominated by AKP's one party rule...which has really been a trend that started in the 1990s and has culminated in the current mess we see the country in now. It's always been an illusion that there was any democracy in Turkey; it's either been the military of the Islamists. 

Democracy doesn't work in the Middle East, or at least doesn't as of now. There are too many minorities in the Middle East that would otherwise be wiped off the map, or forced into assbackwards serfdom (Assyrians, Kurds, Alawites, Druze, Circassians, etc., etc.). Because of this, you need someone who is an equal opportunity asshole to oppress them all and treat them equally shitty; otherwise you see a trend towards one-sect rule that unleashes a whole host of problems on the rest of the less-represented groups. 

Before you say, "But Metro, Syria is run by an Alawite, and its army is all Alawites, and...and...." the majority of the Syrian military is Sunni, though it is also backed by a number of Shi'ite militias currently. 

There isn't a successful democracy in the Middle East, outside of the Israeli Apartheid State. Every stable country is either a secular dictatorship (such as Syria) or a theocratic dictatorship (such as your friends in Saudi Arabia). 

 

 

That you can post intelligent, complex stuff like this and that idiotic “teachers are lazy, evil” stuff earlier is a bit perplexing.  I’ll go with the former for now.  For now. 

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1 minute ago, grandjean87 said:

The remnant of the Ottoman Empire that has democratic potential doesn’t have it post-2016.  Glad to hear Syria is stable.  Great news.  Not news. 

 

 

 

 

 

I mean the Ottomans were wildly successful for myriad reasons.  From Osman to Cosovo to Mahmed II.  A few themes played consistently.  Strong, brutal at times central government nobody dared cross allowing freedom of movement and coalition building.

Sounds a lot like these strong arm thugs of late.

 

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1 minute ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

 

I mean the Ottomans were wildly successful for myriad reasons.  From Osman to Cosovo to Mahmed II.  A few themes played consistently.  Strong, brutal at times central government nobody dared cross allowing freedom of movement and coalition building.

Sounds a lot like these strong arm thugs of late.

 

I agree.  Authoritarianism rules.  It’s the best way to organize human societies.

 

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, grandjean87 said:

I agree.  Authoritarianism rules.  It’s the best way to organize human societies.

 

 

 

 

 

I mean no, it is not.  Forgiving your cheek. But it is better than anarchism. Cost benefit.  Authoritarianism that gives relative stability is better than a roll of the dice that something better may crop up.  It's more what is worth the time.  Fighting for an ideal of how man should be governed, but casting the die to the wind in doing so, or just soft diplomacy and realizing it is not our call.  Iranian deal, pax Americana.  Complex.  

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2 minutes ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

I mean no, it is not.  Forgiving your cheek. But it is better than anarchism. Cost benefit.  Authoritarianism that gives relative stability is better than a roll of the dice that something better may crop up.  It's more what is worth the time.  Fighting for an ideal of how man should be governed, but casting the die to the wind in doing so, or just soft diplomacy and realizing it is not our call.  Iranian deal, pax Americana.  Complex.  

You’re Pax Americana theory from the last Independence Day is highly complex and layered. Think about it vis a vis our PM this eve. 

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14 minutes ago, grandjean87 said:

You can post intelligent, complex stuff like this  and that idiotic “teachers are lazy, evil” stuff earlier is a bit perplexing.  I’ll go with the former for now. 

Lol.  @Joe from WYand @MetropolitanCowboyand I will get into heated debates frequently on random shit, and when the debates get serious will go scorched earth on each other.  Some of the things Joe and I have said to each other would terrify most newcomers.  At the end of the day though, we are all good friends.  I am sure they will torch me in future debates and I will say some harsh stuff to them.  It's part of the brotherhood of the board.

We do this a lot.  Shit, just look at the "durka durr Frank Church aint shit" and the "durka durr read an article and wat bout cell phones" debate we had recently.

If I had a dime for everytime these friends of mine have called me sexist, racist, or ignorant I would have, like 4 bucks.  +++++ I love em though.

 

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6 minutes ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Lol.  @Joe from WYand @MetropolitanCowboyand I will get into heated debates frequently on random shit, and when the debates get serious will go scorched earth on each other.  Some of the things Joe and I have said to each other would terrify most newcomers.  At the end of the day though, we are all good friends.  I am sure they will torch me in future debates and I will say some harsh stuff to them.  It's part of the brotherhood of the board.

We do this a lot.  Shit, just look at the "durka durr Frank Church aint shit" and the "durka durr read an article and wat bout cell phones" debate we had recently.

If I had a dime for everytime these friends of mine have called me sexist, racist, or ignorant I would have, like 4 bucks.  +++++ I love em though.

 

I’m going to need to see more than mundane, slow-witted banter from one of them to get into their sh!t here.  Your friendship dedication admirable.  

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6 minutes ago, grandjean87 said:

You’re Pax Americana theory from the last Independence Day is highly complex and layered. Think about it vis a vis our PM this eve. 

Oh I have friend.   Just not sure it is being advanced through our current actions in the middle east.  Ability to project force is the backbone of the peace.  Sloppy indecisive and non consistent action in the near east undermines this.  It's like we are throwing darts at the board blindfolded, ya know.

 

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1 minute ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Oh I have friend.   Just not sure it is being advanced through our current actions in the middle east.  Ability to project force is the backbone of the peace.  Sloppy indecisive and non consistent action in the near east undermines this.  It's like we are throwing darts at the board blindfolded, ya know.

 

Indecisive and non-consistent I can get behind. See you soon, half. 

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2 minutes ago, grandjean87 said:

I’m going to need to see more than mundane, slow-witted banter from one of them to get into their sh!t here. 

 

The slow, mundane banter is just kinda the really shitty first appetizer.  This aint the BTB.  After a light slap in the face, you are going to get a very detailed and in depth response.  The slap in the face, no matter how dumb, is kind of like a handshake.  And trust me, we all know these slaps in the face are dumb and trolling, but some serious dialogue will follow.  And TBF, you were the one who got cheeky first amigo ;)

 

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9 minutes ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

 

The slow, mundane banter is just kinda the really shitty first appetizer.  This aint the BTB.  After a light slap in the face, you are going to get a very detailed and in depth response.  The slap in the face, no matter how dumb, is kind of like a handshake.  And trust me, we all know these slaps in the face are dumb and trolling, but some serious dialogue will follow.  And TBF, you were the one who got cheeky first amigo ;)

 

Not sure about that last sentence, but yeh I played street ball a few decades, boxed and wrestled when young, and I get testing the new guy on the forum thing. Still doesn’t explain the slow wit guy takes. 

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21 minutes ago, grandjean87 said:

Not sure about that last sentence, but yeh I played street ball a few decades, boxed and wrestled when young, and I get the new guy on the forum thing. Still doesn’t explain the slow wit guy takes. 

 

When a bad take is made, you just have to throw down and call it out.  If the take is bad, a man as smart as you will own that counter.  Here, watch.

@Joe from WY and @MetropolitanCowboyyou were giant douchebags in your takes on educators and extrapolating your own personal experience so as to undermine the argument being made.  One had really  nothing to do with the other and was a personal shot.

GJ, you were pretty dismissive of what they had to say on the actual topic and were fast with the cheek.

Good topic and debate gents.

 

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9 minutes ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

 

When a bad take is made, you just have to throw down and call it out.  If the take is bade, a man as smart as you will own that counter.  Here, watch.

@Joe from WY and @MetropolitanCowboyyou were giant douchebags in your takes on educators and extrapolating your own personal experience so as to undermine the argument being made.  One had really  nothing to do with the other and was personal shot.

GJ, you were pretty dismissive of what they had to say on the actual topic and were fast with the cheek.

Good topic and debate gents.

 

They were dicks w/o any nuanced posts.  I can see why you get along :) . 

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7 hours ago, Nevada Convert said:

Is that all you got? I already explained that I thought of the first thing that came to mind that the gov. could perceive to be a threat. I could’ve said “a little girl and her dolly”. The issue is that you’ll never know for sure why it was done because you don’t have access to any intelligence to be able to fairly judge if the strike was prudent. Kind of ironic that you don’t get the point because you don’t have access to intelligence in your brain, either, because you’ve never been intelligent. 🤪😹😂😝🤣👍

BWAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA

Keep worshipping that InTeLlInGeNcE that you’ll never see. But hey, at least we hit them where it hurts. That swamp cooler will never threaten American interests again. Then again, it doesn’t look so bad all things considered. I’ll wait for the intelligence.

 

80FD8C0B-7B0E-498A-BF4C-A24B0D6B3532.png

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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