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grandjean87

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1 hour ago, happycamper said:

And this is where you and I disagree.

The choices are a big part of the pay gap. You can't push women away from the highest earning jobs and then turn around and say that conversation isn't relevant to the pay gap. It's asinine. 

What? Who's pushing women away from anything?

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1 hour ago, happycamper said:

halfman I respect you but the bolded take is 100% absolute bullshit. Women parents in two parent households with both working are running 75-90% of the chores, the planning, the caretaking, and the emotional labor of the home. 

That isn't true for every household, which, duh, cause that's how statistics work. On average though the household you mentioned, the woman is doing far more work. Men often not only are not equipped to do much of the emotional labor of child rearing, it's a blind spot where they don't even notice that there is something they're not doing. 

This is both lazy and sexist. Men are perfectly capable of child rearing, and as women have become more integrated in the workplace it has become more commonplace. The reason men aren't as involved in care isn't so much a question of ability or capability as much as a societal construct.

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Gender pay gap seems like an obvious tangent in a dead El Rushbo thread. 

I’ve read the social science on this for four decades and mostly from labor economics studies.  I could not nail down a simple quantification like the unexplained gap (discrimination) is really 12% or 5%.  I believe it’s in the single-digits, but it’s all in how the subject is constructed. Women in high-paying jobs self-selecting differing responsibilities, which can impact career pay, in work is one problematic example. 

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...but the rest day would provide no rest for the beleaguered Italians. There was dire news from home. That morning a right wing law student from Sicily had traveled to Rome with murder on his mind. As Togliatti left a meeting of parliament with his mistress by his side, the would be assassin sprang forth and fired 3 bullets into the communist leader. Critically wounded, Togliatti was rushed to the hospital, all the while urging calm. But it was to no avail. A spontaneous and ubiquitous general strike broke out seemingly everywhere, factories were seized, all transit systems shut down, demonstrations quickly turned violent and then riotous, and major northern cities had fallen under the control of the insurrectionists. As Time magazine put it, there was blood on the cobblestones. And it seemed to everyone like there was to be a lot more in the coming days...

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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1 hour ago, happycamper said:

And this is where you and I disagree.

The choices are a big part of the pay gap. You can't push women away from the highest earning jobs and then turn around and say that conversation isn't relevant to the pay gap. It's asinine. 

 

Yeah, that's not happening.

 

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32 minutes ago, renoskier said:

What? Who's pushing women away from anything?

professors, workplaces, culture, child rearing expectations...

I mean... remember the dude at google who used his personal project time to write an exceptionally lazy theses explaining why women didn't work at google cause their brains were just inferior? you think that kind of workplace culture is conducive to women making programmer bucks?

21 minutes ago, Los_Aztecas said:

This is both lazy and sexist. Men are perfectly capable of child rearing, and as women have become more integrated in the workplace it has become more commonplace. The reason men aren't as involved in care isn't so much a question of ability or capability as much as a societal construct.

No, it isn't. It's an accurate illustration of the state of child rearing across the developed world. 

If you don't think it is, you either don't know anyone who has kids or you're utterly blind to your own issues.

5 minutes ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

 

Yeah, that's not happening.

 

sure, bud.

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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24 minutes ago, Los_Aztecas said:

This is both lazy and sexist. Men are perfectly capable of child rearing, and as women have become more integrated in the workplace it has become more commonplace. The reason men aren't as involved in care isn't so much a question of ability or capability as much as a societal construct.

Societal constructs impact people's abilities and capabilities. That's kinda how they work.

As someone who generally buys constructivist arguments (meaning, I agree most of the differences we see are social not biological), I do think there is still something essentially different between men and women when it comes to the experience of caring for their specific children. 

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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1 minute ago, smltwnrckr said:

Societal constructs impact people's abilities and capabilities. That's kinda how they work.

As someone who generally buys constructivist arguments (meaning, I agree most of the differences we see are social not biological), I do think there is still something essentially different between men and women when it comes to the experience of caring for their specific children. 

 

So you think the single largest factor, by far, towards the gender wage gap has a basis in biology?  No...way.

Men and women are paid the same (98% at least) for the same work.  

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Just now, halfmanhalfbronco said:

 

So you think the single largest factor, by far, towards the gender wage gap has a basis in biology?  No...way.

Men and women are paid the same (98% at least) for the same work.  

No, that's not what I said at all. 

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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2 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

Societal constructs impact people's abilities and capabilities. That's kinda how they work.

As someone who generally buys constructivist arguments (meaning, I agree most of the differences we see are social not biological), I do think there is still something essentially different between men and women when it comes to the experience of caring for their specific children. 

The thing is women aren't really taught how to be mothers. It's learned through experience and shared knowledge through a support network. Men are completely capable of fulfilling that role if there wasn't a perceived negative bias and stereotype associated with men fulfilling that role, which in and of itself is an extension of said sexism.

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7 minutes ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

So you think the single largest factor, by far, towards the gender wage gap has a basis in biology?  No...way.

Men and women are paid the same (98% at least) for the same work.  

Are there statistics available by age?  I would expect the gender pay gap to be non-existent for millennials. Women are becoming doctors and lawyers at a higher rate than men now, and the nursing industry is dominated by women. 

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1 minute ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

 

What does "essentially different" mean?

 

1. I'm not saying that essential difference  is "the single largest factor, by far, towards the gender wage gap."

2. I personally think the essential difference has more to do with experience than with DNA or the wiring of the brain. So I'm not sure I would call it biological. Women have unique connections to their children that men do not have. Those connections impact their decision making. Yes, having a child is a biological experience, so it's complicated. It's not just social or just biological. But I think it has more to do with the experience than with the wiring, and since men literally cannot have that experience, it becomes an essential difference. 

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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5 minutes ago, Los_Aztecas said:

The thing is women aren't really taught how to be mothers. It's learned through experience and shared knowledge through a support network. Men are completely capable of fulfilling that role if there wasn't a perceived negative bias and stereotype associated with men fulfilling that role, which in and of itself is an extension of said sexism.

You're arguing against something I am not arguing. All I'm saying is that 1) men's inability to do the emotional labor can very well be due to societal constructs. That's how societal constructs work. 2) At some point, men and women experience parenthood in fundamentally different ways. Those differences inform the division of labor (physical and emotional) in parenting dynamics, which also feeds the workforce dynamics. 

Those two things are are working and existing at the same time. 

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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9 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

Women have unique connections to their children that men do not have. Those connections impact their decision making. Yes, having a child is a biological experience, so it's complicated. It's not just social or just biological. But I think it has more to do with the experience than with the wiring, and since men literally cannot have that experience, it becomes an essential difference. 

I 100% disagree with this take.

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3 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

1. I'm not saying that essential difference  is "the single largest factor, by far, towards the gender wage gap."

2. I personally think the essential difference has more to do with experience than with DNA or the wiring of the brain. So I'm not sure I would call it biological. Women have unique connections to their children that men do not have. Those connections impact their decision making. Yes, having a child is a biological experience, so it's complicated. It's not just social or just biological. But I think it has more to do with the experience than with the wiring, and since men literally cannot have that experience, it becomes an essential difference. 

 

  Carrying a child in the womb for 9 months and the associated hormones changes the wiring if the brain.  That's biology.

It's interesting reading ideas that maternal altruism is not biological, honestly.  I mean I disagree but it is interesting.

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Just now, bsu_alum9 said:

I 100% disagree with this take.

That's fine. I'm sure a lot of people do. 

But at a certain point, it is irrefutably true. Men do not carry a child to term. Men cannot breast feed. So mothers have a literal connection to their children that men cannot have, dictated by nature. I think the difference in those experiences are significant at a certain point.

Let me be clear. I am not making the argument that the breast is best, cult of motherhood milk nazis make. I am also not making the argument that women are therefore the ones who should be caring for their children, or that a woman is always better at child rearing than a man. Not at all. I am saying that there is something different between the ways a father and a mother experience parenthood, especially in the earliest years, and those differences inform the division of emotional and physical labor that those parents take on. And that plays a role in the difference decisions mothers and fathers make as they pursue careers. And that should be recognized in these conversations about gender equity in the workplace. 

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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9 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

You're arguing against something I am not arguing. All I'm saying is that 1) men's inability to do the emotional labor can very well be due to societal constructs. That's how societal constructs work. 2) At some point, men and women experience parenthood in fundamentally different ways. Those differences inform the division of labor (physical and emotional) in parenting dynamics, which also feeds the workforce dynamics. 

Those two things are are working and existing at the same time. 

Men do not have an inability to perform the emotional aspect of child rearing. In some there may be a reluctance due to the sexism rooted in assigned gender roles. Suggesting that men are incapable is and of itself an extension of the sexism associated with perceived gender roles.

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