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sactowndog

Senate Gamesmanship thread

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13 minutes ago, happycamper said:

Oh we are. But the Senate is built on purpose for minority rule. Which... is a pretty good argument for the filibuster. IMO it's a better argument for making every state have 3 senators and having a single multi member election for all 3 senators in the state. 

Also, people do not realize just how powerful the house speaker is.  There has been a growing notion that the house does not matter because the Senate majority leader can just kill their bills.  But the House speaker can make it so the Senate can never even vote on policy that the controlling house party does not agree with.  Mitch could kill a bill, nancy could make it so no conservative legislation could even get to that point.

 

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14 minutes ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

This is basically what I have been saying.  The Senate was designed to function as the biggest tool to protect the minority.  It was also designed to be the biggest check on the Executive branch.  The House gets to tell them what legislation the Senate will even have a voice or vote on.  It's why we saw some gridlock this year.  The House was throwing up bad faith legislation after bad faith legislation and no legislation that would be considered "somewhat or mostly conservative".  The Senate can only consider legislation that comes from the House.  This is why I like divided government the best, and why I think rules that protect the minority in trifectas, especially very narrow trifectas like we have now are important.

 

I agree with this. I just think that while we've cobbled together a way to protect the minority and share power, we do so at the expense of actual governing as that gets caught up in power plays. I feel like while this is a part and parcel of the unfortunately interesting times we're living in, the structures we have aren't helping. 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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5 minutes ago, happycamper said:

I agree with this. I just think that while we've cobbled together a way to protect the minority and share power, we do so at the expense of actual governing as that gets caught up in power plays. I feel like while this is a part and parcel of the unfortunately interesting times we're living in, the structures we have aren't helping. 

The lack of governing seems to help create a vicious cycle; Republicans obstruct things that would materially benefit poor/working class people and use power when they get it to ram through tax cuts and judicial nominees, poor/working class people feel like the government doesn’t do anything that materially affects them so don’t vote as much as higher income people, Republicans maintain disproportionate electoral power because poor/working class people don’t vote as much as higher income people, the Republicans use that power when they have it to ram through tax cuts and judicial nominees, and round and round we go. Not to mention those judicial nominees do things like gut the voting rights act, which makes it harder for poor/working people (especially those that are minorities) that want to vote, to actually vote. 

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19 hours ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

That's not "Supreme Court BS".  The votes were not there.  They were there for ACB.  When the votes are not there, in election years, nominations are not confirmed, when they are, they are.

You are arguing a technicality and ignoring the reality.  

 

You assume the votes weren’t there.  They never actually had a vote to prove it.  

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Manchin and Sinema just got a nice little shot across the bow and he doesn't seem to like it.

https://www.wsaz.com/2021/01/30/sen-joe-manchin-reacts-to-wsaz-interview-with-vice-pres-kamala-harris/

They need to decide if they are on team America or team obstruction.   Blocking those stimulus checks and giving Republican "moderates" a veto of Bidens agenda won't be popular if that is what he wants to do and Harris is going to make sure his constituents know the score. Great job Harris!

Joe Manchin needs to speak up if he has a relief bill with the votes to pass the Senate.   If not,  he needs to decide if he can get onboard with hugely popular stimulus checks or if he wants to make McConnell majority leader and sabotage Biden and suffer the political consequences.   They are not going to screw around for months on this. 

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On 1/27/2021 at 12:02 AM, SalinasSpartan said:

The lack of governing seems to help create a vicious cycle; Republicans obstruct things that would materially benefit poor/working class people and use power when they get it to ram through tax cuts and judicial nominees, poor/working class people feel like the government doesn’t do anything that materially affects them so don’t vote as much as higher income people, Republicans maintain disproportionate electoral power because poor/working class people don’t vote as much as higher income people, the Republicans use that power when they have it to ram through tax cuts and judicial nominees, and round and round we go. Not to mention those judicial nominees do things like gut the voting rights act, which makes it harder for poor/working people (especially those that are minorities) that want to vote, to actually vote. 

This might make sense except the poor working people keep voting Republican 

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1 hour ago, Akkula said:

Manchin and Sinema just got a nice little shot across the bow and he doesn't seem to like it.

https://www.wsaz.com/2021/01/30/sen-joe-manchin-reacts-to-wsaz-interview-with-vice-pres-kamala-harris/

They need to decide if they are on team America or team obstruction.   Blocking those stimulus checks and giving Republican "moderates" a veto of Bidens agenda won't be popular if that is what he wants to do and Harris is going to make sure his constituents know the score. Great job Harris!

Joe Manchin needs to speak up if he has a relief bill with the votes to pass the Senate.   If not,  he needs to decide if he can get onboard with hugely popular stimulus checks or if he wants to make McConnell majority leader and sabotage Biden and suffer the political consequences.   They are not going to screw around for months on this. 

He is right to target it.  I don’t need another 1,200.  

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38 minutes ago, sactowndog said:

He is right to target it.  I don’t need another 1,200.  

Then give your money to a food bank.   You think the government can give it out more efficiently?  Some complex formulas with bureaucrats administering is more efficient?  Just like PPP loans going to wealthy and well connected and skipping mon and pop?  If you don't give it to everyone it will be derided as welfare and used as a wedge to put upper middle class and billionaires who are getting money shoved at them in "common cause."  It is time to stop doing the same old bullshit that doesn't work.   Cover the payment on the back end by raising taxes on the highest tax brackets to international standards. The wealthy can use their check to offset some taxes if they want. 

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1 hour ago, Akkula said:

Then give your money to a food bank.   You think the government can give it out more efficiently?  Some complex formulas with bureaucrats administering is more efficient?  Just like PPP loans going to wealthy and well connected and skipping mon and pop?  If you don't give it to everyone it will be derided as welfare and used as a wedge to put upper middle class and billionaires who are getting money shoved at them in "common cause."  It is time to stop doing the same old bullshit that doesn't work.   Cover the payment on the back end by raising taxes on the highest tax brackets to international standards. The wealthy can use their check to offset some taxes if they want. 

I did.  All of it.  I still think it’s irresponsible to not target it more fully. 

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1 hour ago, Akkula said:

Then give your money to a food bank.   You think the government can give it out more efficiently?  Some complex formulas with bureaucrats administering is more efficient?  Just like PPP loans going to wealthy and well connected and skipping mon and pop?  If you don't give it to everyone it will be derided as welfare and used as a wedge to put upper middle class and billionaires who are getting money shoved at them in "common cause."  It is time to stop doing the same old bullshit that doesn't work.   Cover the payment on the back end by raising taxes on the highest tax brackets to international standards. The wealthy can use their check to offset some taxes if they want. 

That was under Trump.  I would like to see Biden prove government isn’t a complete failure.  

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6 hours ago, sactowndog said:

I did.  All of it.  I still think it’s irresponsible to not target it more fully. 

Okay, I get your point.  But my point is why do Democrats constantly think they need to unilaterally disarm and bring a gun to a knife fight?

When Republicans are planning a giant tax giveaway for the wealthy do we her Republicans wringing their hands about targeting it more to the wealthy taxpayers who pay the most taxes because of the impacts on the deficit.  NO!!!  Because the KNOW it will go over like a lead balloon if they cut out the middle class from the tax cut....so they throw them a pittance and act like it is the best thing since slice bread.

Do you know what the conjobs will do as soon as you "target" this money.  They are going to scream in 2022 that this is socialist welfare for black people on the backs of the upper middle class suburbs that the Democrats just took from the Republicans in the last election.  They will also rightly say that Biden and the Georgia senators lied when they said they would get stimulus checks just like the last ones if they cut out a ton of the prior beneficiaries.  How exactly is this good politics?  How does this help us to prevent the fascist takeover you are always worried about?  :shrug:

At the end of the day if you give the upper middle class a a $2k tax refund or a $2k direct payment what +++++ing difference does it make?  Functionally it will be welfare for the poor and a tax cut for the more well off.  Do people feel the need to give more money to the food bank when they pay less in taxes versus getting a check?  IT IS THE SAME THING!

You know what else in addition to these $2k checks that is VERY POPULAR that A LOT OF PEOPLE SUPPORT is raising taxes on the ultra wealthy and asking them to pay their fair share.  The first rule of politics is to DO popular shit and DON'T do divisive and unpopular shit that your enemies will use against you.  Start playing politics like a Republican, will ya?  

How about if we are worried about the deficit we stop trying to cut disaster relief and start looking at raising taxes on those who have seen their wealth increase MASSIVELY during the pandemic while those upper middle class people were trying to figure out how to online school their kids.

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10 Senate Republicans seek meeting with Biden on Covid relief

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/31/biden-senate-republicans-covid-relief-464057

Oh, look...the talk of reconciliation suddenly has materialized 10 Republicans who want to work in "good faith" to get this passed.  I say take their offer and claim a bi-partisan victory and then include all the missing shit they are trying to cut in the next reconciliation bill.  This is great for Democrats because they can call the bi-partisan bluff and also not waste a reconciliation bill.   

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1 hour ago, Akkula said:

Okay, I get your point.  But my point is why do Democrats constantly think they need to unilaterally disarm and bring a gun to a knife fight?

When Republicans are planning a giant tax giveaway for the wealthy do we her Republicans wringing their hands about targeting it more to the wealthy taxpayers who pay the most taxes because of the impacts on the deficit.  NO!!!  Because the KNOW it will go over like a lead balloon if they cut out the middle class from the tax cut....so they throw them a pittance and act like it is the best thing since slice bread.

Do you know what the conjobs will do as soon as you "target" this money.  They are going to scream in 2022 that this is socialist welfare for black people on the backs of the upper middle class suburbs that the Democrats just took from the Republicans in the last election.  They will also rightly say that Biden and the Georgia senators lied when they said they would get stimulus checks just like the last ones if they cut out a ton of the prior beneficiaries.  How exactly is this good politics?  How does this help us to prevent the fascist takeover you are always worried about?  :shrug:

At the end of the day if you give the upper middle class a a $2k tax refund or a $2k direct payment what +++++ing difference does it make?  Functionally it will be welfare for the poor and a tax cut for the more well off.  Do people feel the need to give more money to the food bank when they pay less in taxes versus getting a check?  IT IS THE SAME THING!

You know what else in addition to these $2k checks that is VERY POPULAR that A LOT OF PEOPLE SUPPORT is raising taxes on the ultra wealthy and asking them to pay their fair share.  The first rule of politics is to DO popular shit and DON'T do divisive and unpopular shit that your enemies will use against you.  Start playing politics like a Republican, will ya?  

How about if we are worried about the deficit we stop trying to cut disaster relief and start looking at raising taxes on those who have seen their wealth increase MASSIVELY during the pandemic while those upper middle class people were trying to figure out how to online school their kids.

I’m not worried about McConnell.  I’m worried about good policy.  I think some Republicans like Collins want to operate in good faith.  

and here is why 10 are important.   If you have 10 then you have 60 and enough to cut off debate.   Lots of things can’t be done by reconciliation.  Important things like fixing Obamacare and Immigration.  Those things will last longer if done in a bi partisan fashion.   

You need to build that spirit of cooperation now.  

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We no longer require 60 votes for judges with lifetime appointments. We can pass certain stuff with simple majority using this wonky Budget Reconciliation method filtered through the Byrd rule. Which mostly just means half baked legislation.

How many conservatives or moderates care that the Tax Cut and Jobs Act of 2017 passed through reconciliation without a single vote from the Democrats? Or that Amy Coney Barrett was confirmed to the SCOTUS without any Democrat votes. Not many.

How many liberals or moderates care that the ACA passed though the Senate without a single vote from a Republican? How many will care if COVID relief, a $15/hour minimum wage, and money for vaccine distribution pass that way as well? Not many.

The Constitution includes plenty of protections for the minority without layering a wonky Senate rule like filibuster on top of it.

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17 minutes ago, THEUniversityofNevada said:

We no longer require 60 votes for judges with lifetime appointments. We can pass certain stuff with simple majority using this wonky Budget Reconciliation method filtered through the Byrd rule. Which mostly just means half baked legislation.

How many conservatives or moderates care that the Tax Cut and Jobs Act of 2017 passed through reconciliation without a single vote from the Democrats? Or that Amy Coney Barrett was confirmed to the SCOTUS without any Democrat votes. Not many.

How many liberals or moderates care that the ACA passed though the Senate without a single vote from a Republican? How many will care if COVID relief, a $15/hour minimum wage, and money for vaccine distribution pass that way as well? Not many.

The Constitution includes plenty of protections for the minority without layering a wonky Senate rule like filibuster on top of it.

There is nothing more bi-partisan than those $2000 Trump approved checks that many Republican senators also approved.  If Democrats were smart they would make Republicans cast a vote on Biden's plan with the checks included...let them filibsuter...and make Republicans take shit load of cloture votes.  If they have to water down the package to get to 60 then they can blame Republicans and call them hypocrites since many of the them supported the full $2000 when Trump was president.

Those moderates and Republicans need to be punished every day in their states for standing in the way of these popular checks.  Their constituents need to call and blow up their phones and Democrats need to set the table for this to happen.  It brings to light the filibuster issue and makes the "moderates" go on record to support their watered down weak sauce disaster recovery ideas nobody really likes.

Democrats should capitulate and water down the bill to get to 60 votes and then they can save the day after the outrage that will ensue when people don't get their checks by including the missing disaster relief in a future reconciliation bill.

Democrats must make Republicans vote NOW and often!  Let them put their idea on the floor and let all Democrats vote on it.  Democrats should NOT filibuster the unpopular moderate plan.  Make them vote!   

You are right....the filibuster issue...nobody outside of Washington gives a rats ass.  That is "inside baseball" bullshit that is just an excuse for not delivering for the American people.

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1 hour ago, sactowndog said:

I’m not worried about McConnell.  I’m worried about good policy.  I think some Republicans like Collins want to operate in good faith.  

and here is why 10 are important.   If you have 10 then you have 60 and enough to cut off debate.   Lots of things can’t be done by reconciliation.  Important things like fixing Obamacare and Immigration.  Those things will last longer if done in a bi partisan fashion.   

You need to build that spirit of cooperation now.  

Sorry but going down that path is the reason we now have to "fix" Obamacare and we still didn't get any Republican votes after negotiating with ourselves.  It is also why we have to "fix" the immigration status of dreamers.  Wrong headed ideas and making the perfect the enemy of the good is also the reason why we got Trump while pious folks voted for third party candidates who couldn't win.  I think a lot of Democrats are sick of hearing from people who don't yet know the definition of insanity.

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