Time to clean up elections?

[sjsbuff]

21 minutes ago, bornontheblue said:

 Sure, she didn't file a lawsuit but It was the Hillary campaign that came up with the phony Russian collusion accusations late in the 2016 election cycle. Her campaign paid for the phony intelligence that was the basis behind the phony dossier. Same intended effect as a lawsuit.  Then the Democrats ran with it  ( many of whom knew it was fake) to try to save face that they lost to the Orange man. 

Make no mistake the Trump campaign  is doing the same thing with allegations of pervasive voter fraud. 

You forgot to add, “on an exponentially larger scale and in myriad unfounded ways” to your last paragraph...

[retrofade]

2 minutes ago, tspoke said:

Didn't the Steele dossier become public in mid December or so. So they didn't make stuff up late in the election cycle. In fact they didn't release it. I can't remember which onli e media member did. (vox maybe?) so no it's not similar at all. Hillary and everyone else accepted the loss and were angry and confused but accepted it. Then the dossier came out and made people even more angry but there wasn't ever an attempt to de-legitimize the election. 

 

"not my president" is different from "not the president" 

Buzzfeed published the copy of it that they had on January 10th, 2017. This was well after the election, and wasn't used as a way to attack the electoral system or the legitimacy of the election itself. 

[tspoke]

Just now, retrofade said:

Buzzfeed published the copy of it that they had on January 10th, 2017. This was well after the election, and wasn't used as a way to attack the electoral system or the legitimacy of the election itself. 

Thanks for the assist. Couldn't remember specifics.

[bornontheblue]

Just now, retrofade said:

The allegations were valid, and not "phony", regardless of what you've convinced yourself of. This is all borne out in the variety of different government reports that I listed earlier. Further, the "dossier" was made public after Trump took office, not in the days after the election. It's exhausting that nearly four years later, so many of you haven't actually bothered learning the actual facts.

In any event, claiming wide-spread voter fraud, changed votes, and all sort of other nonsense like Trump has done and is continuing to do bears little to no resemblance to what you're alleging occurred in 2016. 

But you still haven't learned the most basic fact of all. There was no ongoing collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia. The Mueller report came to that conclusion.  You are just defensive about it because you completely sold out to it as truth for 3 1/2 years , and still cling to it as gospel truth despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.  

The left tried to invalidate the Trump presidency by coming up with phony collusion scandals. The right is currently trying to undercut the future Biden presidency with false claims of pervasive election fraud. It is a very valid comparison. You don't  like the comparison because you were the biggest sucker on this board who fell for it. You were just as bad as the people who are currently saying that Biden won because of fraud. 

[retrofade]

3 minutes ago, tspoke said:

Thanks for the assist. Couldn't remember specifics.

Hell, I couldn't even remember all of them. I had it cataloged in my head that it came out after the inaguration before I went and double checked.

[retrofade]

Just now, bornontheblue said:

But you still haven't learned the most basic fact of all. There was no ongoing collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia. The Mueller report came to that conclusion.  You are just defensive about it because you completely sold out to it as truth for 3 1/2 years , and still cling to it as gospel truth despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.  

The left tried to invalidate the Trump presidency by coming up with phony collusion scandals. The right is currently trying to undercut the future Biden presidency with false claims of pervasive election fraud. It is a very valid comparison. You don't  like the comparison because you were the biggest sucker on this board who fell for it. You were just as bad as the people who are currently saying that Biden won because of fraud. 

What most basic fact of all? 

The Mueller investigation did not come to the conclusion that there was "no collusion", as it didn't come to any conclusion in that regard. In stated that they could not charge a criminal conspiracy to that effect. 

I'm not defensive about shit. I'm merely pointing out that these scenarios, no matter how badly you want them to be the same thing, are anything but similar in their scope, execution, and validity. There was documented evidence that the Trump campaign was seeking out foreign interference in the election. The only "evidence" for voter fraud is whatever nonsense Giuliani and Kraken lady are throwing out there having to do with votes supposedly being counted in other countries and a conspiracy involving two elected Republicans in Georgia and the long-dead former Venezuelan Dictator, Hugo Chavez. They've provided no facts in support of their allegations in court, and have been largely laughed out of the courtroom for the most part as a result. 

You can make this about me all that you want, but it doesn't change the facts that what Trump and company are doing right now re: supposed fraud is significantly different from what occurred four years ago right now. If it makes you feel better about your political party to think that they're the same, then by all means, wrap yourself up in that blanket and ignore the truth. 

[Los_Aztecas]

18 minutes ago, retrofade said:

What most basic fact of all? 

The Mueller investigation did not come to the conclusion that there was "no collusion", as it didn't come to any conclusion in that regard. In stated that they could not charge a criminal conspiracy to that effect. 

I'm not defensive about shit. I'm merely pointing out that these scenarios, no matter how badly you want them to be the same thing, are anything but similar in their scope, execution, and validity. There was documented evidence that the Trump campaign was seeking out foreign interference in the election. The only "evidence" for voter fraud is whatever nonsense Giuliani and Kraken lady are throwing out there having to do with votes supposedly being counted in other countries and a conspiracy involving two elected Republicans in Georgia and the long-dead former Venezuelan Dictator, Hugo Chavez. They've provided no facts in support of their allegations in court, and have been largely laughed out of the courtroom for the most part as a result. 

You can make this about me all that you want, but it doesn't change the facts that what Trump and company are doing right now re: supposed fraud is significantly different from what occurred four years ago right now. If it makes you feel better about your political party to think that they're the same, then by all means, wrap yourself up in that blanket and ignore the truth. 

Sure you can argue 'what my team did isn't QUITE as bad as what the other team did' but I'm not sure that it's a useful argument to make. The simple fact is our beliefs, politics, and public discourse has been increasingly polarized and radicalized within the last 20 years. I'm sure in the near future the Democratic party will probably do something even more damaging to the fabric of our country than what Trump is doing right now. 

The real issue at hand which we need to address is the underlying issues as well as the corrupt politicians that take advantage of this for power. If we don't the problem will just keep getting worse.

[bornontheblue]

The Mueller report found that no one from the Trump campaign knowingly colluded with he Russians in 2016. Here is a portion of an article from the WSJ with the link below:

The special counsel has previously charged dozens of Russian entities and individuals in a two-pronged attack of disinformation and hacked computers in 2016, and found repeated contacts between Russia-linked entities and Trump campaign officials that coincided with those efforts before the election. But Mr. Mueller didn’t establish that anyone affiliated with the GOP presidential campaign knowingly conspired with those efforts, the report said.

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/mueller-report-release-11555590084

 

It is very simple left wing zealots in 2016 tried to undercut the results of the election through use of the "Russian Collusion' accusations. 

The current right wing zealots are doing the same thing by promoting a phony election fraud conspiracy.

Rationalize it any way you want to , but each side is guilty in not accepting, and actively working to overturn a fair election. I know this is a sensitive topic for you because you fell for it hard.

 

[retrofade]

4 minutes ago, bornontheblue said:

The Mueller report found that no one from the Trump campaign knowingly colluded with he Russians in 2016. Here is a portion of an article from the WSJ with the link below:

The special counsel has previously charged dozens of Russian entities and individuals in a two-pronged attack of disinformation and hacked computers in 2016, and found repeated contacts between Russia-linked entities and Trump campaign officials that coincided with those efforts before the election. But Mr. Mueller didn’t establish that anyone affiliated with the GOP presidential campaign knowingly conspired with those efforts, the report said.

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/mueller-report-release-11555590084

That's literally exactly what I've been saying. 

You're also comparing a post hoc outcome to a current situation. 

[Spaztecs]

@retrofade and @bornontheblue

 

[Bob]

3 hours ago, AndroidAggie said:

don't put words in my mouth.

Oh my gosh. Transportation? How could a poor minority ever figure it out? Your whole post was laughable.

[retrofade]

12 minutes ago, Los_Aztecas said:

Sure you can argue 'what my team did isn't QUITE as bad as what the other team did' but I'm not sure that it's a useful argument to make. The simple fact is our beliefs, politics, and public discourse has been increasingly polarized and radicalized within the last 20 years. I'm sure in the near future the Democratic party will probably do something even more damaging to the fabric of our country than what Trump is doing right now. 

The real issue at hand which we need to address is the underlying issues as well as the corrupt politicians that take advantage of this for power. If we don't the problem will just keep getting worse.

I'm not making an argument of gradation. I'm saying that what is going on right now is fundamentally different than what occurred four years ago right now. 

What I do know is that both parties are going to continue to fall further and further into extremist tribalism as our political discourse continues to degrade. 

[retrofade]

To finish up, I'll just go with Romney.

 

 

[bornontheblue]

22 minutes ago, retrofade said:

To finish up, I'll just go with Romney.

 

 

I have to go to an extremely boring zoom meeting now. This conversation was much more fun 

[retrofade]

12 minutes ago, bornontheblue said:

I have to go to an extremely boring zoom meeting now. This conversation was much more fun 

I'd take boring over most of the meetings I've had today.

[Bob]

2 hours ago, East Coast Aztec said:

Your topic is actual voting and counting.  Isn't the Russia collusion more of the campaigning and misinformation claim?  If you want to modify the subject of your OP, you may have a point.

Sure. Guess so.

[AndroidAggie]

54 minutes ago, Bob said:

Oh my gosh. Transportation? How could a poor minority ever find figure it out? Your whole post was laughable.

it's laughable because you don't understand and because it appears you're pathologically incapable of putting yourself in someone else's shoes.

if there are fewer places to vote because of sites being shut down[1], and lines are longer[2], do you think it is MORE easy or LESS easy to get time off and stand in line for multiple hours?  if you are a low wage worker, are you MORE likely or LESS likely to have time flexibility at work?  if you are a low wage worker, are you MORE likely or LESS likely to be able to spare the time off to vote?  that there are more minorities and folks of color in the low wage earner bracket is an interesting correlation but singular descriptive factor of those negatively affected by voter ID laws.

and once again, because you probably didn't read it the first time, there is no problem of widespread voter fraud.  your voter ID laws do way more harm than good and there is no serious problem they would correct.  it's just you and your callous and self reflected thinking.

[1] https://www.vice.com/en/article/pkdenn/the-us-eliminated-nearly-21000-election-day-polling-locations-for-2020
[2] https://apnews.com/article/long-lines-to-vote-arent-unusual-ap-ea86307f2c198d7c279574a826a6236d

[East Coast Aztec]

1 hour ago, Bob said:

Oh my gosh. Transportation? How could a poor minority ever find figure it out? Your whole post was laughable.

I trust this

 

 

more than I trust this

 

And I trust them to look out for my vote and not impede or make it more difficult for no real reason

 

More than I trust them

 

 

If only Trump hadn't politicized the mail-in, and if only politicians in TX and GA not try to pull stupid shit with drop boxes in ahem, certain areas... 

[RogueStout]

5 hours ago, soupslam1 said:

Would you? 

Nope

[grandjean87]

1 hour ago, retrofade said:

I'm not making an argument of gradation. I'm saying that what is going on right now is fundamentally different than what occurred four years ago right now.

And, you are correct.