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mugtang

It’s over...finally.

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5 minutes ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

I don’t have a problem with neocons, other than my pre-Trump skepticism in general. I do have a problem with neocons that stopped believing things they used to based on whatever position Trump took on an issue. Goldberg, French, Will; still cool. Frum, Boot, lmfao Rubin and their ilk can rot.

Yep, they can go back to the Democrats if they'll have them.

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1 hour ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

Sorry David, you don’t get to be a jackass for four years acting like a fourth reich is imminent and get taken seriously on the right anymore. Enjoy your new buddies on the left. Hopefully for you they memory hole all that axis of evil stuff

I think it's as simple as politics making for strange bedfellows. Trump wasn't very friendly to the W-era neocon agenda, so neocons, Conservative Classic, and right-wing never-Trumpers found themselves in a political 3-way without the Cheez Whiz. 

St-Javelin-Sm.jpgChase.jpg 

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15 minutes ago, CPslograd said:

Okay,so you think the Democrats acknowledged Trump legitimately won the election?  Ever?  Cause I don't.

The #resistance was as American as apple pie, but now we all need to come together as a country?  Please.

I'm not terribly distraught to see Trump gone, but gimme a break.  You and Mug waxing on about our long national nightmare finally ending is a little over the top.  

Hillary conceded, the transition commenced and the president elect visited the White House within days. Then, if you remember, she just disappeared for like months. So no, as of right now, not the same. Sorry if you want it to be for whatever reason. 

Public resistance of our elected leaders is as american as apple pie. In fact, it's more american than apple pie. I believe apple's were first introduced here for cider. But you are welcome to get back on the resistence train now that the other team's guy is in there. 

Trump has been a generational embarrassment for the country. And we dont even have a 9/11 to blame for it this time. People just thought it would be cool to shake things up. In doing so, they pushed the GOP away from the values i shared with the party. So, yes I've been a little bummed about that. If you think that's a hysterical or controversial statement, that's fine. I often feel the same about your takes on the media. People can disagree.

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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3 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

Hillary conceded, the transition commenced and the president elect visited the White House within days. Then, if you remember, she just disappeared for like months. So no, as of right now, not the same. Sorry if you want it to be for whatever reason. 

Public resistance of our elected leaders is as american as apple pie. In fact, it's more american than apple pie. I believe apple's were first introduced here for cider. But you are welcome to get back on the resistence train now that the other team's guy is in there. 

Trump has been a generational embarrassment for the country. And we dont even have a 9/11 to blame for it this time. People just thought it would be cool to shake things up. In doing so, they pushed the GOP away from the values i shared with the party. So, yes I've been a little bummed about that. If you think that's a hysterical or controversial statement, that's fine. I often feel the same about your takes on the media. People can disagree.

Schumer and company were pushing for Russian investigations by December bro.  So, you need to take a step off your highhorse too.

Obama and his DOJ literally spied on a presidential candidate and president elect.  Where was your outrage then?  I dont remember it.

Is Trumps handling of this ridiculous?  Sure.  But so was the last adminstration.  And as much as you claim to be a guy that calls it both ways, im struggling to remember your concern with the whole Russia nonsense.  If Im wrong, and the failure of the left and the media to accept election results bothered you, please let me know.

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10 minutes ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

No, it wasn’t. And no, it’s not. Frum vocally peddled Russian collision as if it were true for three years, then as the Mueller Report blew up in his face shifted the goalposts. Now he wants to pretend like he saved the country or something when it wasn’t ever in danger, after gaslighting and enjoying the plaudits of group think once again. That guy can piss off.

I don't give a crap air David Frum. His con cred is of no importance here. 

There were people that did have to save the country though, because the president, at a minimum, went through the motions of destroying it. Call this one a stress test I guess but the whole it was just a prank bro all's well that ends well line is a dangerous attitude, far more dangerous than mislabeling what happened to this country's soul over the last four years.

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14 minutes ago, CPslograd said:

Schumer and company were pushing for Russian investigations by December bro.  So, you need to take a step off your highhorse too.

Obama and his DOJ literally spied on a presidential candidate and president elect.  Where was your outrage then?  I dont remember it.

Is Trumps handling of this ridiculous?  Sure.  But so was the last adminstration.  And as much as you claim to be a guy that calls it both ways, im struggling to remember your concern with the whole Russia nonsense.  If Im wrong, and the failure of the left and the media to accept election results bothered you, please let me know.

The funny thing about the whole russia nonsense was that there was bipartisan support in the senate and support on both ideological sides for investigating... and for the special coj sel after the Comey's firing. It wasn't just the Democrats. But those supporters were retroactively called RINOs who aren't allowed back into the GOP world and conservative ideological circles unless they did some performative flailing against the dems and the media afterward. 

My detailed knowledge of the Russia investigation isnt that great tho. Because I didnt follow it that closely. Because I wasn't outraged one way of the other. Because I figured any smoke was due to incompetence and it was unlikely that the campaign actually conspired with Putin. And at the time I said that, and I didn't spout any of the stuff Bout trump being a traitor. And then he basically did the thing he was accused of again as president and admitted it. 

My conscience is clear on this one. I told the democrats on this board that they are welcome on the 'always resist government power' train driven by the libertarians after trump won. I guess they're getting off now. It was a nice ride while it lasted. I think the train wont be too full with a Dem prez and GOP senate, but theres always room when anyone is ready to get back on. 

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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40 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

I have a higher bar for 'special kind of jackass' than someone who I've decided isnt on my team anymore because he wrote something I find stupid. And there's a pile of them on the right who reached that bar, imo. 

There are a lot of things written on the right that I find stupid. Writers that I like often write things I think are dumb. That’s not what Frum, Kristol, Sykes etc...did these past four years.

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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35 minutes ago, TheSanDiegan said:

I think it's as simple as politics making for strange bedfellows. Trump wasn't very friendly to the W-era neocon agenda, so neocons, Conservative Classic, and right-wing never-Trumpers found themselves in a political 3-way without the Cheez Whiz. 

But not all of them debased themselves to join the resistance no matter how ridiculous it got. There are a lot of people that got flack in the crossfire from both sides for criticizing Trump and the GOP while still not abandoning conservatism to do it. 

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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7 minutes ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

There are a lot of things written on the right that I find stupid. Writers that I like often write things I think are dumb. That’s not what Frum, Kristol, Sykes etc...did these past four years.

I found books about how great nationalism and musings on the neatness of right wing populism is to be more disturbing than guys like frum. I agree with you that the frenches and the wills of the world did a better job of navigating the shifts in conservatism. But I also dont know if those guys can be called conservative anymore either.

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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19 minutes ago, toonkee said:

I don't give a crap air David Frum. His con cred is of no importance here. 

There were people that did have to save the country though, because the president, at a minimum, went through the motions of destroying it. Call this one a stress test I guess but the whole it was just a prank bro all's well that ends well line is a dangerous attitude, far more dangerous than mislabeling what happened to this country's soul over the last four years.

The President threw a Twitter fit and got laughed out of court over and over. There was no night of the long knives. Trump militias did not seize federal armories. Trump supporters did not burn down American cities. We had an election, the President cried like Nancy Kerrigan, the end. 

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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5 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

I found books about how great nationalism and musings on the neatness of right wing populism is to be more disturbing than guys like frum. I agree with you that the frenches and the wills of the world did a better job of navigating the shifts in conservatism. But I also dont know if those guys can be called conservative anymore either.

Set aside Trump’s terrible character, because that’s the real elephant dung in the room. What is it that Trump did that is not conservative? Federalist Society judges that are McConnell’s work. Paul Ryan’s tax cuts. Trade is pretty much the only area where he deviated from the pre-Trump orthodoxy. Maybe Kim Kardashian’s criminal justice reform, but reformicons were trying, and failing, to argue for that kind of stuff back in the 2000’s. It’s the detestable clown show stuff that warped the GOP, not policy. 

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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50 minutes ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

Set aside Trump’s terrible character, because that’s the real elephant dung in the room. What is it that Trump did that is not conservative? Federalist Society judges that are McConnell’s work. Paul Ryan’s tax cuts. Trade is pretty much the only area where he deviated from the pre-Trump orthodoxy. Maybe Kim Kardashian’s criminal justice reform, but reformicons were trying, and failing, to argue for that kind of stuff back in the 2000’s. It’s the detestable clown show stuff that warped the GOP, not policy. 

Massive debt?

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48 minutes ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

Set aside Trump’s terrible character, because that’s the real elephant dung in the room. What is it that Trump did that is not conservative? Federalist Society judges that are McConnell’s work. Paul Ryan’s tax cuts. Trade is pretty much the only area where he deviated from the pre-Trump orthodoxy. Maybe Kim Kardashian’s criminal justice reform, but reformicons were trying, and failing, to argue for that kind of stuff back in the 2000’s. It’s the detestable clown show stuff that warped the GOP, not policy. 

I mean, character, trade and spending... those are like 3 of the top 5 post-Raegan GOP ideals are they not? Is there anything less conservative than putting tariffs on agricultural goods and then shoveling money at the farmers who get hit by those tariffs? And I think the general economic ideology has shifted beyond trade and tariffs and into much less of a free market approach...breaking up big tech, picking winners and losers, etc... not high on the conservative list of priorities until four years ago. So I think that those examples are enough to say that what it means to be a conservative has changed.

But I also think that the bigger problem is the embrace of what I think are the worst impulses of the conservative movement. There used to be a pretty strong coalition that included both libertarian leaning GOP-ers and the social conservatives that really allowed for a kind of truce between those two wings. And that truce was basically kept up by the GOP accepting that they embraced socially conservative values like family and tradition and so on, while also defending classically liberal values like due process and free speech and equality before the law and individual autonomy and limited government and so on. But under Trump, American conservatism has largely rejected that wing of the movement and moved American conservatism closer to the blood-and-soil style of conservatism that you find in Europe. (ironically, a conservatism that is also fine with big government safety net as long as it's for us and not them) The culture wars have become the center around which the movement orbits, which isn't necessarily un-conservative, but has moved the GOP off track from where they seemed to be heading before Trump got there. A lot of that is Bannon and Miller and guys like that.  

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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I realize I'm coming off like this right now on this thread...

tenor.gif

Apologies.

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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