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The GOP has lost it

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16 minutes ago, Del Scorcho said:

I think inviting Michigan lawmakers to the WH in an attempt to subvert the election is deeply concerning, is it not?

NO!!! Because the entire theory is batshit stupid. It’s worse than the underpants gnomes plot, at least they only had one questionable step between hatching the plan and profit.

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8 minutes ago, bornontheblue said:

It is indeed batshit crazy. He has had two weeks to come forth with evidence of fraud and all we have is Hugo Chavez. 

So it’s true, dead people are impacting the election :hmmm:

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54 minutes ago, NVGiant said:

Agree. Service of ego is the prime motivation for power for a guy like Trump, making them inseparable. But my point was that his constant need to fuel his ego overpowers any other thought. So his instinct is to deny any problem at all, rather than use that pandemic for a power grab.

You’re right, we saw the seeds of it with the feds cracking protestor’s heads. Also, we saw how intelligent people can go along, some lured by the desire for law and order. In regard to the pandemic, some compelled by the desire to save lives. (I’ll point to people like me for that.) But ultimately, dumb and lazy was our greatest safeguard in this case, which is alarming. That’s not institutions working. That’s luck.

 

I think luck is a lot of it. I do think it's fair to point out that there's still a good chance the institutions hold against a more competent authoritarian, especially since the competent authoritarian would very likely have less of a rabid following than Trump. And installation of a kind of authoritarian state in this system requires a large, rabid following and slavish devotion from that following in the electorate and at the federal, state and local levels of power. Trump was able to gin up the devotion much more than I thought he would, which is the most concerning part of this. How would the institutions hold up under those circumstances if the guy with the devoted following has more competence?

 But the luck part of all this is that his devotion was built on the thing that defines his political career more than his ego - the fact that he is an agent of chaos. And you know what's interesting... I've read some people who have suggested that one of the things that the populace has developed in the 21st century with all the ads and the media and the social media and the reality shows and all the simulacra is a weird, keen intuition for sensing authenticity. I know that sounds crazy, but people have collective bullshit detectors that are as sharp as ever. And his followers intuitively knew him to be authentic about two things - his promise to be fully devoted to the religious right as long as they were devoted to him, and his effectiveness at being an agent of chaos in Washington. And remember - that's really why he won. People wanted to "shake things up" because Washington wasn't "working for them" or whatever. People knew he had a nose for chaos, for divisiveness. They could smell it on him. No one in the GOP had anything like that before. 

Whether it's due to laziness or being stupid or whatever, that nose for chaos both makes him uniquely popular with disaffected white voters (and yes, despite very small inroads in some minority populations, it's white voters who are least impacted by chaos in the statehouses) and uniquely incapable of pursuing any real, comprehensive authoritarian agenda. Maggie Haberman has said over and over about him that people need to stop assuming there's ever any real strategy or plan... one of the main things that drives his actions is the fact that he likes to just throw something out there, do something kinda nuts, and just see what happens. See how it plays out. Watch the spectacle he creates. It's like stirring up an ant hill or a hornets nest and standing back to see what it looks like. I think that serves his ego in a lot of ways... creating a national spectacle is a power and an ego boost in and of itself.

So you're right that it has a lot to do with ego, but also with a particular kind of combination of ego and lack of patience or will or discipline or knowledge. Even when the road map is right in front of you. Use a national crisis, real or imagined, to consolidate power. Only after you've consolidated the power do you move on to the stage where you deny any problems or crises, as they would threaten your own power. You only have to read a few books to see that. And dude really hasn't read even a few books. But how many charismatic malevolent spirits are out there right now, looking at his failures, armed with the knowledge of how to do it right? That last question may be alarmist. But I dunno any more. 

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28 minutes ago, AndroidAggie said:

i've noodled on that a lot lately.  i grew up hearing it as folk prophecy and the people who seemed to be really animated by the idea of it were attracted to ideas, candidates, and... ahem...  working ideas that involve cooperation of a small cadre of powerful people who operate behind the scenes...  (yes that ought to be neutral enough but still descriptive...) that i found ... (oh boy i'm struggling here) unpalatable.

and now that it appears as though there's a real constitutional threat to legitimate elections and transition of power, probably the most american thing to have been invented in the history of government, what do we hear? certainly not a 'voice of gladness...'

This sounds arousing, can you expound? 

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So here are Tribes thoughts 

Laurence Tribe, a constitutional law professor at Harvard Law School, said Michigan lawmakers visiting the White House on Friday could be walking into an illegal meeting.

"I am worried that any lawmakers who attend this ridiculous meet and greet are really attending a conspiratorial meeting to steal the election," Tribe told CNN's Erin Burnett. "There's no question that the meeting that is being held is illegal. There is no question that it really is designed quite corruptly to take away people's right to vote."

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2 minutes ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

The Nazis were elected, but used a criminal, mafia like, arm that immediately became a secret police force to gain power. They used a Presidential decree to suspend rights, not lawyers, and their thugs to quickly take advantage by persecuting the opposition.

This is how they ultimately consolidated power, but ignores how they came to prominence. First, their stormtroopers were roughing up commies before they ever gained power. And yes, they gained power through elections. I don't need a 7th grad history lesson. But as Hans Litten will tell you, or would tell you if he hadn't killed himself in a concentration camp, Nazi sympathizers had filled the judiciary in the early years before Hitler became chancellor. So things like murdering commies became harder to prosecute, which helped set in place an atmosphere of fear.

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5 minutes ago, sactowndog said:

So here are Tribes thoughts 

Laurence Tribe, a constitutional law professor at Harvard Law School, said Michigan lawmakers visiting the White House on Friday could be walking into an illegal meeting.

"I am worried that any lawmakers who attend this ridiculous meet and greet are really attending a conspiratorial meeting to steal the election," Tribe told CNN's Erin Burnett. "There's no question that the meeting that is being held is illegal. There is no question that it really is designed quite corruptly to take away people's right to vote."

Michigan's attorney general has obliquely indicated she may investigate them for this.

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1 hour ago, sactowndog said:

So do you consider lobbying the legislature to over-ride the will of the voters and seat their own slate of electors a lawful option? 

Its going over the line the shouldn't be crossed. The GOP leadership McConell, Rubio, Graham, etc. McCarthy  need to come forward and denounce all of this, and publicly wish DJT well post presidency, and congratulate Biden, and say they look forward to the next four years. Trump has been given time to show there was fraud and he has failed. I have expressed these thoughts in my family as well and now I have family members that won't talk to me. I suspect this is happening in a lot of families. I find it ironic that the president of "law & order" is trying to subvert the law and overturn an election. 

Also, to be completely fair,  the Democrats tried this same bullshit tactic of pressuring electors to go against the will of the voters in their states in 2016. Then they invented a phony scandal based on a phony dossier to try to undo a legal and valid election, and dragged the country through that bullshit for 3 1/2 years. The Democrats are just as dirty as Trump is being right now, I don't like their phony piousness. 

I am a Republican, I supported Trump, and I liked a lot of what he accomplished.  The Republican party really needed someone like Trump at the time. We were a party of stale, stuffy, boring uninspiring, stuffed suits (Jeb Bush, McCain, Romney)  that Hillary would have defeated. I believe Trump has left the GOP in a better position to go forward better than what it was in 2016. That can all be thrown out the window if current GOP leadership doesn't grow a spine and take control of this. 

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20 minutes ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

The Nazis were elected, but used a criminal, mafia like, arm that immediately became a secret police force to gain power. They used a Presidential decree to suspend rights, not lawyers, and their thugs to quickly take advantage by persecuting the opposition.

You don't think something at least analogous to other totalitarian power grabs could have happened under COVID if Trump recognized that it's easier to use emergency powers when there's a real national emergency?

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I gotta be honest, I think I may be coming down with a bad case of TDS. Before the vote I was just kinda hoping Trump would fade into the ether, but after these two weeks I'm hoping he does time. The damage he is doing, not just to the Republican party but to a handful of our country's core principles, will take years to heal.

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Read the tweet thread. 

Basically Norton suggests Trump is attempting to bluff his hand best he can to negotiate a better outcome for him. It's always what Trump does. 

 

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3 minutes ago, bornontheblue said:

Its going over the line the shouldn't be crossed. The GOP leadership McConell, Rubio, Graham, etc. McCarthy  need to come forward and denounce all of this, and publicly wish DJT well post presidency, and congratulate Biden, and say they look forward to the next four years. Trump has been given time to show there was fraud and he has failed. I have expressed these thoughts in my family as well and now I have family members that won't talk to me. I suspect this is happening in a lot of families. I find it ironic that the president of "law & order" is trying to subvert the law and overturn an election. 

Also, to be completely fair,  the Democrats tried this same bullshit tactic of pressuring electors to go against the will of the voters in their states in 2016. Then they invented a phony scandal based on a phony dossier to try to undo a legal and valid election, and dragged the country through that bullshit for 3 1/2 years. The Democrats are just as dirty as Trump is being right now, I don't like their phony piousness. 

I am a Republican, I supported Trump, and I liked a lot of what he accomplished.  The Republican party really needed someone like Trump at the time. We were a party of stale, stuffy, boring uninspiring, stuffed suits (Jeb Bush, McCain, Romney)  that Hillary would have defeated. I believe Trump has left the GOP in a better position to go forward than what it was in 2016. That can all be thrown out the window if current GOP leadership doesn't grow a spine and take control of this. 

I disagree with a lot of this, but appreciate what you said up top. 

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3 minutes ago, toonkee said:

Read the tweet thread. 

Basically Norton suggests Trump is attempting to bluff his hand best he can to negotiate a better outcome for him. It's what always what Trump does. 

Does this make you want to Rounders right now, or never watch it again?

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9 minutes ago, bornontheblue said:

Its going over the line the shouldn't be crossed. The GOP leadership McConell, Rubio, Graham, etc. McCarthy  need to come forward and denounce all of this, and publicly wish DJT well post presidency, and congratulate Biden, and say they look forward to the next four years. Trump has been given time to show there was fraud and he has failed. I have expressed these thoughts in my family as well and now I have family members that won't talk to me. I suspect this is happening in a lot of families. I find it ironic that the president of "law & order" is trying to subvert the law and overturn an election. 

Also, to be completely fair,  the Democrats tried this same bullshit tactic of pressuring electors to go against the will of the voters in their states in 2016. Then they invented a phony scandal based on a phony dossier to try to undo a legal and valid election, and dragged the country through that bullshit for 3 1/2 years. The Democrats are just as dirty as Trump is being right now, I don't like their phony piousness. 

I am a Republican, I supported Trump, and I liked a lot of what he accomplished.  The Republican party really needed someone like Trump at the time. We were a party of stale, stuffy, boring uninspiring, stuffed suits (Jeb Bush, McCain, Romney)  that Hillary would have defeated. I believe Trump has left the GOP in a better position to go forward than what it was in 2016. That can all be thrown out the window if current GOP leadership doesn't grow a spine and take control of this. 

To be completely fair, this is wrong and is the typical false equivalence bullshit used to justify Trump's awfulness. Glad you're not all in on this election fraud nonsense but who gives a shit about the GOP winning? You should be in it for a America. The RNC is the one peddling this. F them to hell.

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18 minutes ago, madmartigan said:

This sounds arousing, can you expound? 

lol

in all seriousness, that sort of thing wasn't really talked about much in my house growing up.  the only people i heard it from were people who were really animated by and interested in fringe theories and prophecies that turned the world upside down.

as such, i dismissed them.  humans have always been really animated by end of world prophecies and doom cults.  seems like every few years we've got people thinking "this is it, this is the apocalypse, this is the return of Jesus, this is the end of the world" and the world keeps on turning.  the sentiment that the world is ending is cut from the same fabric of "kids these days" and "back in my day x was way better"

all the same, stuff's different these days and governments don't last forever.  civilization has collapsed multiple times in the past and it's possible it'd happen again.  so i don't know.

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19 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

I think luck is a lot of it. I do think it's fair to point out that there's still a good chance the institutions hold against a more competent authoritarian, especially since the competent authoritarian would very likely have less of a rabid following than Trump. And installation of a kind of authoritarian state in this system requires a large, rabid following and slavish devotion from that following in the electorate and at the federal, state and local levels of power. Trump was able to gin up the devotion much more than I thought he would, which is the most concerning part of this. How would the institutions hold up under those circumstances if the guy with the devoted following has more competence?

 But the luck part of all this is that his devotion was built on the thing that defines his political career more than his ego - the fact that he is an agent of chaos. And you know what's interesting... I've read some people who have suggested that one of the things that the populace has developed in the 21st century with all the ads and the media and the social media and the reality shows and all the simulacra is a weird, keen intuition for sensing authenticity. I know that sounds crazy, but people have collective bullshit detectors that are as sharp as ever. And his followers intuitively knew him to be authentic about two things - his promise to be fully devoted to the religious right as long as they were devoted to him, and his effectiveness at being an agent of chaos in Washington. And remember - that's really why he won. People wanted to "shake things up" because Washington wasn't "working for them" or whatever. People knew he had a nose for chaos, for divisiveness. They could smell it on him. No one in the GOP had anything like that before. 

Whether it's due to laziness or being stupid or whatever, that nose for chaos both makes him uniquely popular with disaffected white voters (and yes, despite very small inroads in some minority populations, it's white voters who are least impacted by chaos in the statehouses) and uniquely incapable of pursuing any real, comprehensive authoritarian agenda. Maggie Haberman has said over and over about him that people need to stop assuming there's ever any real strategy or plan... one of the main things that drives his actions is the fact that he likes to just throw something out there, do something kinda nuts, and just see what happens. See how it plays out. Watch the spectacle he creates. It's like stirring up an ant hill or a hornets nest and standing back to see what it looks like. I think that serves his ego in a lot of ways... creating a national spectacle is a power and an ego boost in and of itself.

So you're right that it has a lot to do with ego, but also with a particular kind of combination of ego and lack of patience or will or discipline or knowledge. Even when the road map is right in front of you. Use a national crisis, real or imagined, to consolidate power. Only after you've consolidated the power do you move on to the stage where you deny any problems or crises, as they would threaten your own power. You only have to read a few books to see that. And dude really hasn't read even a few books. But how many charismatic malevolent spirits are out there right now, looking at his failures, armed with the knowledge of how to do it right? That last question may be alarmist. But I dunno any more. 

Good (and long-winded) points, and smart questions. I guess to sum it up, I would say that an optimistic man can look at what has happened and take heart in just how tight the needle is to pull something like this off in our system. The pessimist looks at it and worries that there is a needle to thread at all.

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