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The GOP has lost it

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1 minute ago, NVGiant said:

I think @bornontheblueshould be removed from the list. He’s been pretty on point in saying this whole effort is nutty.

Yea I agree. Tho I would honestly want to know if this whole fiasco makes him reassess the last 4 years at all.

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Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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2 minutes ago, NVGiant said:

I think @bornontheblueshould be removed from the list. He’s been pretty on point in saying this whole effort is nutty.

That’s a good point. @bornontheblue, you’re not included with the others. My apologies.

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25 minutes ago, SalinasSpartan said:

Your comment reminds me of that 2001 movie Conspiracy about the Wannsee conference where they finalized the plans for the Final Solution. There’s a scene near the beginning where one of the guys, who’s a lawyer, asks how many others are lawyers; most raise their hands so he quips “it’s worse then I thought”. I also remember one of the conflicts throughout the movie is from Wilhelm Stuckart’s character, who objects to any changes made to the Nuremberg laws, as he wrote them, and someone else points out that they are in control and can just change the laws, so what’s the big deal? 
 

 

Never saw the movie. (In fact, when I read your first line I thought you were referencing that crappy Mel Gibson movie from the 90s). I’m going to have to check that out. 

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21 minutes ago, NVGiant said:

I was thinking about this last night in my occasional inventory of whether these kinds of thoughts are a real concern or something more hysterical. And something was inescapable. The pandemic was a perfect opportunity to seize more power. And either because Trump is not what the left has feared or an absolute moron (the answer is both, clearly), he passed on any attempt of consolidation through emergency powers and went head long the other direction into denial.

His motivation is ego, not power. Which brings me to what we’ve learned over the last four years. 1) Trump’s greatest threat was always his sheer incompetence. 2) A leader with his character flaws coupled with even a touch of intelligence really could be a threat to our system. 3) For ordinary people, recognizing the threat in real time is really difficult in the moment.

 

The road map to him overseeing a police state was right there. All the way down for an actual excuse to use federal forces to crack down on protests had he fully bought in and even egaterated covid threats. Close borders, control economic production, pass measures to literally control movement and commerce and peoples daily lives. His people would have bought in. 

But I just dont know if one can separate his ego from his will to power. I just wonder if people around him failed to connect the dots for him, and his lack of will or imagination or attention span kept him from embarking on a project that would have required real planning and time and governing.

But I believe he did want and desire the outcome that would have come from that... he did want that power, as it would be the ultimate ego boost. And I believe he wanted it more than any president since nixon. He was just dumb and lazy. It's the same with money... he wants all the money. He is just bad at the business that one needs to get it. 

Nixon didnt hold on to power because the system set up to keep a guy like that out, that system worked. People are gonna say it worked this time too... but I dont think it worked as well. These guys are like the raptors throwing themselves at the fence to test the weaknesses. Even when the fence holds, their knowledge of its potential weaknesses is part of what weakens it. Then you get an unexpected power outage.

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Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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11 minutes ago, Bob said:

I said in this thread that Trump needs to shit or get off the pot. Very, very soon. What do you want from me?

Make a statement that you believe Trump and his cronies are going way off the rails with this shit and need to back down and accept defeat. That you personally do not support this hysteria and reject it.

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4 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

The road map to him overseeing a police state was eight there. All the way down for an actual excuse to use federal forces to crack down on protests had he fully bought in and even egaterated covid threats. Close borders, control economic production, pass measures to literally control movement and commerce and peoples daily lives. His people would have bought in. 

But I just dont know if one can separate his ego from his will to power. I just wonder if people around him failed to connect the dots for him, and his lack of will or imagination or attention span kept him from embarking on a project that would have required real planning and time and governing.

But I believe he did want and desire the outcome that would have come from that... he did want that power, as it would be the ultimate ego boost. And I believe he wanted it more than any president since nixon. He was just dumb and lazy. It's the same with money... he wants all the money. He is just bad at the business that one needs to get it. 

Nixon didnt hold on to power because the system set up to keep a guy like that out, that system worked. People are gonna say it worked this time too... but I dont think it worked as well. These guys are like the raptors throwing themselves at the fence to test the weaknesses. Even when the fence holds, their knowledge of its potential weaknesses is part of what weakens it. Then you get an unexpected power outage.

He tried to go there but his defense Secretary Esper thwarted him.   In 4 years he just didn’t have enough time to weed out the guys like Esper who prevented him from using the Army.  4 more years and an ability to replace civil servants (his recent executive order) it would have been another story.  

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2 minutes ago, sactowndog said:

He tried to go there but his defense Secretary Esper thwarted him.   In 4 years he just didn’t have enough time to weed out the guys like Esper who prevented him from using the Army.  4 more years and an ability to replace civil servants (his recent executive order) it would have been another story.  

If the excuse is to prevent covid spread, and its after months of trump building a power infrastructure with that as the reason, it's different. 

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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11 minutes ago, sactowndog said:

He is asking if it makes you re-access your previous support.

I don’t need you to speak for me. Stay in your lane.

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3 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

The road map to him overseeing a police state was eight there. All the way down for an actual excuse to use federal forces to crack down on protests had he fully bought in and even egaterated covid threats. Close borders, control economic production, pass measures to literally control movement and commerce and peoples daily lives. His people would have bought in. 

But I just dont know if one can separate his ego from his will to power. I just wonder if people around him failed to connect the dots for him, and his lack of will or imagination or attention span kept him from embarking on a project that would have required real planning and time and governing.

But I believe he did want and desire the outcome that would have come from that... he did want that power, as it would be the ultimate ego boost. And I believe he wanted it more than any president since nixon. He was just dumb and lazy. It's the same with money... he wants all the money. He is just bad at the business that one needs to get it. 

Nixon didnt hold on to power because the system set up to keep a guy like that out, that system worked. People are gonna say it worked this time too... but I dont think it worked as well. These guys are like the raptors throwing themselves at the fence to test the weaknesses. Even when the fence holds, their knowledge of its potential weaknesses is part of what weakens it. Then you get an unexpected power outage.

Agree. Service of ego is the prime motivation for power for a guy like Trump, making them inseparable. But my point was that his constant need to fuel his ego overpowers any other thought. So his instinct is to deny any problem at all, rather than use that pandemic for a power grab.

You’re right, we saw the seeds of it with the feds cracking protestor’s heads. Also, we saw how intelligent people can go along, some lured by the desire for law and order. In regard to the pandemic, some compelled by the desire to save lives. (I’ll point to people like me for that.) But ultimately, dumb and lazy was our greatest safeguard in this case, which is alarming. That’s not institutions working. That’s luck.

 

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7 minutes ago, Bob said:

Nah, nothing like that now at the moment. Trump is still exhausting all his peaceful, lawful options to try to obtain victory. Is it going well? No. However, If he tries tries an actual coup and has to be dragged out of the White House kicking and screaming, then yeah, I'll feel like the wool was pulled over my eyes.

I see a lot of this presently:

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It's all unfounded. No, the "soul" of the nation has not been lost. No, democracy is not broken. No, he hasn't ruined the country. It's funny watching the liberal tears, though. If the recounts reveal nothing and he cannot win in the courts then there WILL be a peaceful transition of power.

 

What did you guys expect after the way Democrats and MSM have treated him the past four years. I mean, seriously. The guy wasn't even given a chance by more than half of the country. Impeachment? Really? Russian collusion? Seriously. Good ppl on both sides? Come on. Losers and suckers? Please. KAvanaugh debacle which cemented my beliefs that Democrats are truly evil. I have NEVER seen one man treated so poorly. Ever.

This is all probably just a giant +++++ YOU to his haters before he golfs every single day until he dies of a heart attack. And he's getting all your goats.

So do you consider lobbying the legislature to over-ride the will of the voters and seat their own slate of electors a lawful option? 

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50 minutes ago, NVGiant said:

I was thinking about this last night in my occasional inventory of whether these kinds of thoughts are a real concern or something more hysterical. And something was inescapable. The pandemic was a perfect opportunity to seize more power. And either because Trump is not what the left has feared or an absolute moron (the answer is both, clearly), he passed on any attempt of consolidation through emergency powers and went head long the other direction into denial.

His motivation is ego, not power. Which brings me to what we’ve learned over the last four years. 1) Trump’s greatest threat was always his sheer incompetence. 2) A leader with his character flaws coupled with even a touch of intelligence really could be a threat to our system. 3) For ordinary people, recognizing the threat in real time is really difficult.

 

I think this is true but also basically every other bench republican lacks an iota of trump's charisma.  Like people are scared of Tom Cotton but he's a dead-eyed weirdo.

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1 minute ago, Rofl_copter_dos said:

I think this is true but also basically every other bench republican lacks an iota of trump's charisma.  Like people are scared of Tom Cotton but he's a dead-eyed weirdo.

This is true also. 

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57 minutes ago, NVGiant said:

I was thinking about this last night in my occasional inventory of whether these kinds of thoughts are a real concern or something more hysterical. And something was inescapable. The pandemic was a perfect opportunity to seize more power. And either because Trump is not what the left has feared or an absolute moron (the answer is both, clearly), he passed on any attempt of consolidation through emergency powers and went head long the other direction into denial.

His motivation is ego, not power. Which brings me to what we’ve learned over the last four years. 1) Trump’s greatest threat was always his sheer incompetence. 2) A leader with his character flaws coupled with even a touch of intelligence really could be a threat to our system. 3) For ordinary people, recognizing the threat in real time is really difficult.

 

holy freaking crap i never realized this

this is really insightful

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41 minutes ago, NVGiant said:

Never saw the movie. (In fact, when I read your first line I thought you were referencing that crappy Mel Gibson movie from the 90s). I’m going to have to check that out. 

Pretty good one. And it’s less then 2 hours long too, which is nice. 

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8 minutes ago, NVGiant said:

This is true also. 

the thing is that trump as a motivating force for GOP voters won't go away until he's either dead or so invalid he can't participate in the electoral process in some fashion so until that happens every GOP elected official who isn't a full on fever swamp dweller basically has to dance to his every whim.  But most congressional republicans are losers who can barely carry a room and every time they try and ape him it just falls flat.

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