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Maji

Georgia Senate Runoff Thread

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4 minutes ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Well, they are.  Especially the judiciary.  The country is more populas and educated than any other point in time and that is a simple product of those facts.

Our institutions include Congress, where the Republicans are unwilling to stand up for the legitimacy and fairness of the election results. Are they afraid of backlash from the GOP base? Are they merely trying to win the Georgia runoffs? Maybe, but that doesn't make things any better

When a significant number of Representatives and Senators refuse to stand up for our institutions...

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Many of the Democrats in Congress now support stacking the SCOTUS. Many of the Republicans refuse to acknowledge the validity of the election. Some of the Republicans even asked for votes to be thrown out

When members of our institutions don't support those institutions, I can't agree with what Lawlor wrote. Sowing doubt about the election results will also change things downstream. Many voters either won't support our institutions or will doubt their strength

Lawlor: "The institutions are not statues of Ozymandias alone. They are made up of people. And frankly, the people are better than they’ve ever been"

I simply can't agree. The Judiciary is merely one branch of government. The president is alleging fraud and firing those brave enough to disagree (Executive branch). Some members of the Legislative branch are supporting Trump's efforts.

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17 minutes ago, Maji said:

 

It will be interesting. I have some anecdotes to share about Georgia. I have friends that live there that never have been involved in politics in their life. They voted and paid a bit of attention, but otherwise ignored it. In 2018 they were so disgusted by the Brian Kemp debacle that they got involved. They have spent the last 6 months knocking on doors and registering people to vote. When the ballots came out they came back to teach these previous non voters how to fill them out and make sure they got mailed. 

It's all about the ground game. If you really care, and try and make a difference, you generally can.

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34 minutes ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

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My problem isn't with the Judicial branch here. It's with the Executive and Legislative branches, which are also part of our institutions

The Judicial branch is shooting Trump down, but the Judicial branch is impacted by the other two branches in the long-run. If there's no appetite for keeping the institutions as is, eventually they will change.

I guess from @thelawlorfaithful's perspective, where the GOP is coddling Trump but everything will soon return to normal, that isn’t a concern. I don't share his optimism. The reason the GOP is acting this way in the first place is because of Trump’s base. That brand of right-wing populism isn't going away anytime soon.

Even if GOP leadership wanted to return to their old ideological leanings, the base will force them to change via the election system

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36 minutes ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

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You can f*ck a skull and still end up weaker for the effort. 

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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32 minutes ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

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For the record I never claimed Trump being a moron and challenging shit in courts repeatedly was fascism.   You and Lawlor both have a habit of making shit up.   Trump is free to contest the election as long as he wants.  My only question is does his doing so and the Georgia candidates support for it backfire.   
 

We do disagree on the damage another 4 years of Trump would have done.   You think our institutions are immune to failure and I disagree.   I would argue the founders disagreed also.  

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1 minute ago, sactowndog said:

For the record I never claimed Trump being a moron and challenging shit in courts repeatedly was fascism.   You and Lawlor both have a habit of making shit up.   Trump is free to contest the election as long as he wants.  My only question is does his doing so and the Georgia candidates support for it backfire.   
 

We do disagree on the damage another 4 years of Trump would have done.   You think our institutions are immune to failure and I disagree.   I would argue the founders disagreed also.  

My view is that the institutions will only last as long as the voters support them. There's pressure on both sides to change things. How long can the center hold ground?

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Just now, Maji said:

My view is that the institutions will only last as long as the voters support them. There's pressure on both sides to change things. How long can the center hold ground?

Right now Trump is using the institutions legitimately and getting his ass kicked.  The closest you can legitimately claim is Barr telling DOJ to get involved which by and large it was window dressing and they largely have not.   

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10 minutes ago, sactowndog said:

Right now Trump is using the institutions legitimately and getting his ass kicked.  The closest you can legitimately claim is Barr telling DOJ to get involved which by and large it was window dressing and they largely have not.   

His allies have asked state SOS's to toss votes (outside legal system). He's only capable of doing so much because of the Judiciary, but rhetoric still matters. The Executive branch and the Legislative branch impact the long-term composition of the Judicial branch. If both parties abandon support for our institutions, the institutions will be adjusted or outright fail

The voters ultimately elect the President and the members of the Legislative branch. Trump's base is part of that electorate, so Trump holds sway

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1 minute ago, Maji said:

His allies have asked state SOS's to toss votes (outside legal system). He's only capable of doing so much because of the Judiciary, but rhetoric still matters. The Executive branch and the Legislative branch impact the long-term composition of the Judicial branch. If both parties abandon support for our institutions, the institutions will be adjusted or outright fail

Graham inferred and if he did he should be censured. They biggest question is will the Georgia Senators pay a price.  It’s all a game to see which voters will be motivated to turn out more.  I think it could well backfire on them.  

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20 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

You can f*ck a skull and still end up weaker for the effort. 

Another reason to cancel Atilla

On 12/1/2016 at 12:26 PM, WyomingCoog said:

I own a vehicle likely worth more than everything you own combined and just flew first class (including a ticket for a 2 1/2 year old), round trip to Las Vegas and I'm not 35 yet. When you accomplish something outside of finishing a book, let me know. When's the last time you saw a 2 year old fly first class in their own seat? Don't tell me about elite.  

28 minutes ago, NorCalCoug said:

I’d happily compare IQ’s with you any day of the week.

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4 minutes ago, sactowndog said:

Graham inferred and if he did he should be censured. They biggest question is will the Georgia Senators pay a price.  It’s all a game to see which voters will be motivated to turn out more.  I think it could well backfire on them.  

That's the thing though. It really shouldn't be a game. Decisions have consequences. The GOP can't make their base distrust our system and then pretend everything is back to normal right after. Well, they can, but their base will remain furious and act upon it. That will be true regardless of the results in Georgia

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3 minutes ago, Maji said:

That's the thing though. It really shouldn't be a game. Decisions have consequences. The GOP can't make their base distrust our system and then pretend everything is back to normal right after. Well, they can, but their base will remain furious and act upon it. That will be true regardless of the results in Georgia

Yes but how will they act?  
 

If they turn violent that leads to my question on Sedition.  I don’t know the law on stirring people up to act violently and what responsibility the stirrer has.   
 

More likely they will stop voting and that will hurt the GOP.  It all remains to be seen. 

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39 minutes ago, sactowndog said:

Yes but how will they act?  
 

If they turn violent that leads to my question on Sedition.  I don’t know the law on stirring people up to act violently and what responsibility the stirrer has.   
 

More likely they will stop voting and that will hurt the GOP.  It all remains to be seen. 

It's tough to know exactly. My guess is that there will be an effort to purge moderates from congress (via primary system). Whatever they do, it certainly won't be in support United States institutions

Trump's base doesn't need to unseat all the incumbents either. They only need to unseat enough to make the rest of Republicans in Congress fall in line. Graham used to be a respected colleague. Now he's pressuring elected officials to throw out votes.

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