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Akkula

Biden/Trump 1st Debate Game Thread

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35 minutes ago, Rebelbacker said:

Those white dudes in the Jim Crow south did they get prison reform done? Did they create opportunity zones to incentivize capital investments in black communities? Did they fund HBCU's? 

Why don't you just say what you think. Is Trump a racist or white supremacist?

For extra credit what party were those politicians in that enacted the Jim Crow laws?

Yes, Trump is a RACIST.

-signed Central Park Five-

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7 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

though groups like the Proud Boys clearly fit the bill IMO. 

Their leader is black/Cuban.

8 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

Democrats. But you do know that after the Civil Rights movement, the racists flipped parties? You know that, right? 

Let's just see about that.

That centers around the myth that the GOP began to pander to Southern white racists in the 1960's. Hoover and Eisenhower won southern states prior to 1960. Eisenhower also sent in the 101st Airborne to Little Rock to uphold SCOTUS decision to desegregate schools. 

The second myth is that after the Voting Rights Act was passed segregationist Democrats bolted to the GOP. In actuality, 20 of the 21 Democrats who voted against the Civil Rights Act remained Democrats and their seats remained in Democratic hands for over 20 years.

The third myth is that the GOP has maintained a stronghold on the South with their use of the so-called “Southern Strategy.”

Richard Nixon lost the Deep South in 1968. Jimmy Carter nearly swept the region in 1976 and in 1992 Bill Clinton won Georgia, Louisiana, Arkansas, Tennessee, Kentucky and West Virginia.

Republicans didn’t hold a majority of southern congressional seats until 1994.

Feel free to check my work. 

 

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10 minutes ago, Rebelbacker said:

Their leader is black/Cuban.

There were black slave traders. Shit's complicated

10 minutes ago, Rebelbacker said:

Let's just see about that.

That centers around the myth that the GOP began to pander to Southern white racists in the 1960's. Hoover and Eisenhower won southern states prior to 1960. Eisenhower also sent in the 101st Airborne to Little Rock to uphold SCOTUS decision to desegregate schools. 

The second myth is that after the Voting Rights Act was passed segregationist Democrats bolted to the GOP. In actuality, 20 of the 21 Democrats who voted against the Civil Rights Act remained Democrats and their seats remained in Democratic hands for over 20 years.

The third myth is that the GOP has maintained a stronghold on the South with their use of the so-called “Southern Strategy.”

Richard Nixon lost the Deep South in 1968. Jimmy Carter nearly swept the region in 1976 and in 1992 Bill Clinton won Georgia, Louisiana, Arkansas, Tennessee, Kentucky and West Virginia.

Republicans didn’t hold a majority of southern congressional seats until 1994.

Feel free to check my work. 

 

So, just to be clear... you're going all in on your argument that in fact the racists didn't switch parties after the civil rights movement? 

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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29 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

So, just to be clear... you're going all in on your argument that in fact the racists didn't switch parties after the civil rights movement? 

I'm dealing in facts you are dealing with the term "racists". So let's look at facts.

 A total of 21 Democrats in the Senate opposed the Civil Rights Act.  Only Strom Thurmond, ever became a Republican.  The rest, including Al Gore, Sr. and Robert Byrd, a former Exalted Cyclops in the Ku Klux Klan, remained Democrats until the day they died.

As those 20 lifelong Democrats retired their Senate seats remained in Democrat hands for several decades afterwards.  So too did the overwhelming majority of the House seats in the South until 1994 when a Republican wave election swept the GOP into control of the House for the first time since 1952.  1994 was also the first time Republicans ever held a majority of House seats in the South, 30 years after the passage of the Civil Rights Act.  

Republicans gradually built their support in the South until two more wave elections in 2010 and 2014 gave them the overwhelming majorities they have today.   

If this was a sudden "switch" to the Republican Party for the old Democrat segregationists, it sure took a long time to happen.

After the 1964 election, after the passage of the Civil Rights Act, Democrats still held a 102-20 House majority in states that had once been part of the Confederacy.  In 1960 that advantage was 117-8.  A pickup of 12 seats is hardly the massive shift one would expect if racist voters suddenly abandoned the Democratic Party in favor of the GOP like you claim.

Voting patterns in the South didn't really change all that much after the Civil Rights era. Democrats still dominated Senate, House, and gubernatorial elections for decades afterward.  Alabama didn't elect a Republican governor until 1986. Mississippi didn't elect one until 1991. Georgia didn't elect one until 2002.

In the Senate, Republicans picked up four southern Senate seats in the 1960s and 1970s, while Democrats also picked up four. Democratic incumbents won routinely.  

The supposedly racist southern Republicans who voted for Nixon in 1972 also voted to re-elect Democrat Senators in Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and Georgia.  Republicans gained only eight southern seats in the House even though their presidential candidate won a record 520 electoral votes.

After Nixon resigned in 1974, Jimmy Carter swept the South in 1976.  Democrat Bill Clinton split the southern states with Bush in 1992 and with Bob Dole in 1996.

Meanwhile Democrats kept winning House, Senate, and gubernatorial elections.  Only in 2000 did southern voters go to unanimous Electoral College support for a Republican presidential candidate.

Since 2000, the south has voted reliably Republican (with the exception of Florida and North Carolina) in every presidential election as it has consistently voted for Republicans in Senate, House, and Governor's races.

This shift was a gradual, decades long transition and not a sudden shift in response to the Civil Rights movement of the 1960s. Racism didn't turn the South Republican. If it did, then why did it take 30 years for those racist voters to finally give the GOP a majority of southern House seats?  Why did it take racist voters in Georgia 38 years to finally vote for a Republican governor?  And why did only one southern Democrat ever switch to the Republican Party?

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15 minutes ago, Rebelbacker said:

I'm dealing in facts you are dealing with the term "racists". So let's look at facts.

 A total of 21 Democrats in the Senate opposed the Civil Rights Act.  Only Strom Thurmond, ever became a Republican.  The rest, including Al Gore, Sr. and Robert Byrd, a former Exalted Cyclops in the Ku Klux Klan, remained Democrats until the day they died.

As those 20 lifelong Democrats retired their Senate seats remained in Democrat hands for several decades afterwards.  So too did the overwhelming majority of the House seats in the South until 1994 when a Republican wave election swept the GOP into control of the House for the first time since 1952.  1994 was also the first time Republicans ever held a majority of House seats in the South, 30 years after the passage of the Civil Rights Act.  

Republicans gradually built their support in the South until two more wave elections in 2010 and 2014 gave them the overwhelming majorities they have today.   

If this was a sudden "switch" to the Republican Party for the old Democrat segregationists, it sure took a long time to happen.

After the 1964 election, after the passage of the Civil Rights Act, Democrats still held a 102-20 House majority in states that had once been part of the Confederacy.  In 1960 that advantage was 117-8.  A pickup of 12 seats is hardly the massive shift one would expect if racist voters suddenly abandoned the Democratic Party in favor of the GOP like you claim.

Voting patterns in the South didn't really change all that much after the Civil Rights era. Democrats still dominated Senate, House, and gubernatorial elections for decades afterward.  Alabama didn't elect a Republican governor until 1986. Mississippi didn't elect one until 1991. Georgia didn't elect one until 2002.

In the Senate, Republicans picked up four southern Senate seats in the 1960s and 1970s, while Democrats also picked up four. Democratic incumbents won routinely.  

The supposedly racist southern Republicans who voted for Nixon in 1972 also voted to re-elect Democrat Senators in Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and Georgia.  Republicans gained only eight southern seats in the House even though their presidential candidate won a record 520 electoral votes.

After Nixon resigned in 1974, Jimmy Carter swept the South in 1976.  Democrat Bill Clinton split the southern states with Bush in 1992 and with Bob Dole in 1996.

Meanwhile Democrats kept winning House, Senate, and gubernatorial elections.  Only in 2000 did southern voters go to unanimous Electoral College support for a Republican presidential candidate.

Since 2000, the south has voted reliably Republican (with the exception of Florida and North Carolina) in every presidential election as it has consistently voted for Republicans in Senate, House, and Governor's races.

This shift was a gradual, decades long transition and not a sudden shift in response to the Civil Rights movement of the 1960s. Racism didn't turn the South Republican. If it did, then why did it take 30 years for those racist voters to finally give the GOP a majority of southern House seats?  Why did it take racist voters in Georgia 38 years to finally vote for a Republican governor?  And why did only one southern Democrat ever switch to the Republican Party?

So just to be clear...  you're now saying that the racists slowly moved from the democrat party to the republican party. And by slowly, you mean less than 30 years after more than a century of a solid platform. 30 years, according to historians, is a slow and gradual transition? 

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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5 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

So just to be clear...  you're now saying that the racists slowly moved from the democrat party to the republican party. And by slowly, you mean less than 30 years after more than a century of a solid platform. 30 years, according to historians, is a slow and gradual transition? 

I've been clear. Crystal in fact.

Most people, when confronted with facts that prove them wrong, would take a moment to rethink their position.

Not you.

You believe that the voters in the South are racist and that's why they shifted to the GOP over the course of 4 decades. It couldn't be tax policy, demographics, jobs, change in popular culture, economic revitalization or any number of other factors. It has to be racism. Ok, I'm done with your trolling. 

I thought you may be a serious person that could actually debate an issue and acknowledge facts. Turns out I was wrong. 

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46 minutes ago, Rebelbacker said:

I've been clear. Crystal in fact.

Most people, when confronted with facts that prove them wrong, would take a moment to rethink their position.

Not you.

You believe that the voters in the South are racist and that's why they shifted to the GOP over the course of 4 decades. It couldn't be tax policy, demographics, jobs, change in popular culture, economic revitalization or any number of other factors. It has to be racism. Ok, I'm done with your trolling. 

I thought you may be a serious person that could actually debate an issue and acknowledge facts. Turns out I was wrong. 

Well, no...you havent really been clear at all. That's why I'm trying to get to the nut, as they say, of your various rantings.

We both seem to agree that racists have moved from the democrats to the gop. You seem to be saying that it took a few years. 

You seem to be arguing with something you seem to think i said or think about the south. Yet, I dont recall saying much about the south other than using jim crow as an analogy

You also seem now to be saying that racists moved from the DEMS to the GOP because of taxes as well as"cultural" reasons... which I don't disagree with. 

So I don't know what the problem is! I feel like we're getting somewhere!

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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55 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

Well, no...you havent really been clear at all. That's why I'm trying to get to the nut, as they say, of your various rantings.

We both seem to agree that racists have moved from the democrats to the gop. You seem to be saying that it took a few years. 

You seem to be arguing with something you seem to think i said or think about the south. Yet, I dont recall saying much about the south other than using jim crow as an analogy

You also seem now to be saying that racists moved from the DEMS to the GOP because of taxes as well as"cultural" reasons... which I don't disagree with. 

So I don't know what the problem is! I feel like we're getting somewhere!

Yeah I don't get what this discussion is even about. @Rebelbacker are you suggesting that the gop isn't the racist party now, because the Dems were the racist party 50 years ago? I mean it's abundantly clear that white supremacists at least find comfort in Trump and Stephen Miller is literally a white supremacist.  :shrug:

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1 hour ago, toonkee said:

Yeah I don't get what this discussion is even about. @Rebelbacker are you suggesting that the gop isn't the racist party now, because the Dems were the racist party 50 years ago? I mean it's abundantly clear that white supremacists at least find comfort in Trump and Stephen Miller is literally a white supremacist.  :shrug:

This isn't that hard. Below is what he said. This is a common myth from leftists that because of the Civil Rights movement and specifically the Voting Rights Act of 1964 the southern democrats left and became Republican. My posts completely destroyed that crazy theory. My mistake was thinking smltwnrckr actually was engaging in a debate. It's hard to debate someone when they believe the party they oppose are racists no matter what facts you put in front of them. But I've come to expect that these days. 

5 hours ago, smltwnrckr said:

 

 

Democrats. But you do know that after the Civil Rights movement, the racists flipped parties? You know that, right? 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Rebelbacker said:

This isn't that hard. Below is what he said. This is a common myth from leftists that because of the Civil Rights movement and specifically the Voting Rights Act of 1964 the southern democrats left and became Republican. My posts completely destroyed that crazy theory. My mistake was thinking smltwnrckr actually was engaging in a debate. It's hard to debate someone when they believe the party they oppose are racists no matter what facts you put in front of them. But I've come to expect that these days. 

 

 

So according to your timeline it took 30 years to flip and the last 20 years the south has been Republican. Okay. I don't think smltwn is arguing against that. :shrug: 

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Catch me up here. What the hell is this all about? Is this one of those deals where we ignore the Southern Strategy so we can call the Democrats the real racist party? Or is there some nuance here? Some pretty long posts, so I’m gonna need the @toonkeeversion to sum it up for me.

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8 minutes ago, NVGiant said:

What the hell is this all about? 

Is that a rhetorical question?

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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2 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

Is that a rhetorical question?

Not really. I’m interested, but don’t want to get sucked in if it’s one of those southern-strategy-never-happened arguments. Those suck. But I’m also staring down the barrel of some pretty long posts, and you know how I feel about that.

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16 minutes ago, NVGiant said:

Not really. I’m interested, but don’t want to get sucked in if it’s one of those southern-strategy-never-happened arguments. Those suck. But I’m also staring down the barrel of some pretty long posts, and you know how I feel about that.

Yeah, that's what rebelbacker has been droning on about.

 

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50 minutes ago, toonkee said:

So according to your timeline it took 30 years to flip and the last 20 years the south has been Republican. Okay. I don't think smltwn is arguing against that. :shrug: 

He’s saying it flipped because of “racism”. He has no evidence that is the case and discounts any other reason. His main point was it changed after the Civil Rights movement and it didn’t flip for over 30 years after that. 

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5 minutes ago, Rebelbacker said:

He’s saying it flipped because of “racism”. He has no evidence that is the case and discounts any other reason. His main point was it changed after the Civil Rights movement and it didn’t flip for over 30 years after that. 

I think you need to re-read. You're inserting cause and effect. Projection?

Here, I'll give you an out... being a republican doesn't make you a racist. In fact racist Republicans (none of whom are on here, of course!) are racist independent of their elephant pins. So relaaax, guy. Just cuz all the racists vote for your guy doesn't make you racist!

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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16 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

I think you need to re-read. You're inserting cause and effect. Projection?

Here, I'll give you an out... being a republican doesn't make you a racist. In fact racist Republicans (none of whom are on here, of course!) are racist independent of their elephant pins. So relaaax, guy. Just cuz all the racists vote for your guy doesn't make you racist!

 

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2 minutes ago, Rebelbacker said:

 

Oh, so neo-nazis are now men of their word on twitter?

No, sir. It is clearly true that all racists will vote for Trump. You shouldn't feel bad for voting for him too, though. I mean, all old people drive Buicks. That doesn't mean that I can't own a Buick as a middle aged man and still feel fresh, right?

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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