Whistleblower Alleges Medical Neglect and Mass Hysterectomies at ICE Camp

[smltwnrckr]

3 minutes ago, modestobulldog said:

There was no proof in the article of non-consent.  

That's what investigations are for. The accusations are both shocking and believable, your incredulousness notwithstanding. This would be a straightforward investigation, but there doesn't seem to be an interest in figuring this out and preventing it from happening in the future.

Like I said before... if these were abortions, a lot of people would be screaming and howling about it. 

[modestobulldog]

3 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

That's what investigations are for. The accusations are both shocking and believable, your incredulousness notwithstanding. This would be a straightforward investigation, but there doesn't seem to be an interest in figuring this out and preventing it from happening in the future.

Like I said before... if these were abortions, a lot of people would be screaming and howling about it. 

My apologies, I just looked at second article, there should be investigation, however, I remain skeptical of the non-consent.  This is a late-breaking article and complaint, just a few days old.  Investigations take time.  Hopefully this isn't a Dr. Nassar type of situation.

[smltwnrckr]

6 minutes ago, modestobulldog said:

My apologies, I just looked at second article, there should be investigation, however, I remain skeptical of the non-consent.  This is a late-breaking article and complaint, just a few days old.  Investigations take time.  Hopefully this isn't a Dr. Nassar type of situation.

I think it will happen, but it would be more of a credible investigation if there is buy-in by both parties in Congress and cooperation from DOJ.

[NMpackalum]

Just now, smltwnrckr said:

I think it will happen, but it would be more of a credible investigation if there is buy-in by both parties in Congress and cooperation from DOJ.

 

16 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

That's what investigations are for. The accusations are both shocking and believable, your incredulousness notwithstanding. This would be a straightforward investigation, but there doesn't seem to be an interest in figuring this out and preventing it from happening in the future.

Like I said before... if these were abortions, a lot of people would be screaming and howling about it. 

This hits close to home as far as the allegations of malpractice is concerned. There are specific procedures to follow for investigations to determine the validity of the claims in every state. Press releases and politically targeted investigations aren't part of the procedures. Many on the board have already presumed the allegations as fact. It would be nice if people let the medical legal process work like they're supposed to.

[NorCalCoug]

1 hour ago, sactowndog said:

No, my point is no matter what Trump does you wouldn’t oppose him.  
 

Vote shaming would imply I thought you had a level of morals to which I could appeal.

 

My opinion of you doesn’t reach that level.  

Your opinion is dogshit.  Your approval is dependent upon a vote for Biden and nothing else.  I have no intention of voting for Trump (already stated as much on this board).  But that’s not what you care about.  You want everyone to vote for Biden.

To publicly question one’s morals over a presumed vote in a democratic election isn’t vote shaming?  Nobody’s buying what you’re selling.  Your “questioning” and agenda here says way more about you than anyone who votes for Trump.

[smltwnrckr]

12 minutes ago, NMpackalum said:

 

This hits close to home as far as the allegations of malpractice is concerned. There are specific procedures to follow for investigations to determine the validity of the claims in every state. Press releases and politically targeted investigations aren't part of the procedures. Many on the board have already presumed the allegations as fact. It would be nice if people let the medical legal process work like they're supposed to.

While this is true and worth remembering, there are institutional barriers in place at prisons, jails and detention facilities that make these sorts of investigations more complicated and more difficult, and often put a thumb on the scale for the institution. Add to that the conditions here - non-citizen women in detention and high potential for lack of clear communication between the parties - and even consent itself becomes trickier than it would be in a normal medical situation where you have a doctor treating a patient. 

Unfortunately, when you have accusations like these in prisons often the only way to get them investigated properly (or investigated at all) is through political pressure. That's literally what politics is for. I don't mind press releases and media blitz from politicians in situations like this because unfortunately the jail/prison system (and yes, this is a federal jail for all intents and purposes) notoriously fails to respond to much else. 

[NMpackalum]

Just now, smltwnrckr said:

While this is true and worth remembering, there are institutional barriers in place at prisons, jails and detention facilities that make these sorts of investigations more complicated and more difficult, and often put a thumb on the scale for the institution. Add to that the conditions here - non-citizen women in detention and high potential for lack of clear communication between the parties - and even consent itself becomes trickier than it would be in a normal medical situation where you have a doctor treating a patient. 

Unfortunately, when you have accusations like these in prisons often the only way to get them investigated properly (or investigated at all) is through political pressure. That's literally what politics is for. I don't mind press releases and media blitz from politicians in situations like this because unfortunately the jail/prison system (and yes, this is a federal jail for all intents and purposes) notoriously fails to respond to much else. 

I generally agree with this for prison or detention facilities, but there are no shortage of plaintiffs attorneys willing to take cases like this for medical malpractice because of the financial gain.

[smltwnrckr]

4 minutes ago, NMpackalum said:

I generally agree with this for prison or detention facilities, but there are no shortage of plaintiffs attorneys willing to take cases like this for medical malpractice because of the financial gain.

I mean, I just don't think it's fair to compare this to a typical Medical Malpractice case. I would say that's like comparing a personal injury lawsuits to accusations of prison guards throwing inmates down the stairs.

But the point is taken on medical malpractice lawsuits. I am not sure where I stand on the issues there, since I generally don't like the idea of scaling back rights to sue but also think in many cases liability and fear of liability makes things in a field like medicine more expensive and less effective. I don't know enough about the field to have a real solid take. 

[youngredbullfan]

11 minutes ago, NMpackalum said:

I generally agree with this for prison or detention facilities, but there are no shortage of plaintiffs attorneys willing to take cases like this for medical malpractice because of the financial gain.

This doesn’t appear to be a typical malpractice case. 

[renoskier]

33 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

I think it will happen, but it would be more of a credible investigation if there is buy-in by both parties in Congress and cooperation from DOJ.

But it might not even rise to the level necessary for a full blown DOJ investigation. 

[smltwnrckr]

Just now, renoskier said:

But it might not even rise to the level necessary for a full blown DOJ investigation. 

Isn't ICE part of the DOJ? The DOJ should fully cooperate. 

[renoskier]

3 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

Isn't ICE part of the DOJ? The DOJ should fully cooperate. 

I don't think so. Homeland Security, no?

[smltwnrckr]

3 minutes ago, renoskier said:

I don't think so. Homeland Security, no?

OOPs. You're right. There's a threshold where DOJ should get involved, though. 

[NMpackalum]

4 minutes ago, youngredbullfan said:

This doesn’t appear to be a typical malpractice case. 

Which makes it even more important to follow the established protocols and process'. Each plaintiff will get their opportunity to present their case. No reason to lump all these cases together since they are all different.

[modestobulldog]

43 minutes ago, NMpackalum said:

 

This hits close to home as far as the allegations of malpractice is concerned. There are specific procedures to follow for investigations to determine the validity of the claims in every state. Press releases and politically targeted investigations aren't part of the procedures. Many on the board have already presumed the allegations as fact. It would be nice if people let the medical legal process work like they're supposed to.

Home run, circle the bases.

[youngredbullfan]

11 minutes ago, NMpackalum said:

Which makes it even more important to follow the established protocols and process'. Each plaintiff will get their opportunity to present their case. No reason to lump all these cases together since they are all different.

No, the assertion is that they were similar and possibly part of a systemic pattern of patient abuse. 

[Guest #1Stunner]

The problem with these sorts of headlines, is that we've seen too many instances of crying wolf recently against Donald Trump.  Like the fake story that he allowed Russian bounties against US Soldiers, and the fake story that he attacked WWI veterans. 

Fake news, with useful idiots in the Media / Trump Boners running with it, without caring about the facts, or if it is true or not......

How are we to know if this is real or not?   Or another fake news story??

 

Best to let an investigation play out.

Here is a counterpoint:

 

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/ice-hysterectomies-allegations-what-is-the-truth/

Medical Director of the ICE Health Service Corps (IHSC) Dr. Ada Rivera said in a statement obtained by Law&Crime that ICE “vehemently disputes the implication that detainees are used for experimental medical procedures.” “ICE’s mission is to protect the homeland and to swiftly and quickly remove people from the country; the health, welfare and safety of ICE detainees is one of the agency’s highest priorities, any assertion or claim to the contrary is false and intentionally misleading,” the statement said. Rivera, citing ICE data, said that since 2018 “only two individuals at Irwin County Detention Center were referred to certified, credentialed medical professionals at gynecological and obstetrical health care facilities for hysterectomies in compliance with National Commission on Correctional Health Care (NCCHC) standards.” Rivera said detainees at ICE facilities are “afforded informed consent, and a medical procedure like a hysterectomy would never be performed against a detainee’s will.” The statement also said medical care decisions are made by medical personal, not law enforcement. The statement further said that it was “unfortunate” that the allegations contained in the whistleblower complaint were shared with the media “without allowing the government to examine or take appropriate action.” (Emphasis added).

[halfmanhalfbronco]

Well @sactowndog has not shamed me into voting for Biden however @#1Stunner makes a compelling case for voting Kanye.  I will have to consider this.

[Guest #1Stunner]

8 minutes ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Well @sactowndog has not shamed me into voting for Biden however @#1Stunner makes a compelling case for voting Kanye.  I will have to consider this.

Still odd that @sactowndog went full CCP, and tagged a bunch of individuals that he deemed need a "Struggle Session", to admit their guilt, and publicly disavow Trump, and switch to Biden.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struggle_session

 

Not voting for Trump or Biden.... Voting for Kanye.

 

Kanye is the candidate most closely aligned with BYU fans. 

He is religious, and pro-life.  He is an entrepreneur.  

He is a family man.

He dislikes Taylor Swift and her music. 

And, if he starts wearing a BYU hat around, I predict that he could win the Mormon vote. 

[sactowndog]

2 hours ago, smltwnrckr said:

This is very true. And it's unfortunate this thread turned the way it did as quickly as it did. Because the conditions in ICE facilities is a big deal, and the fact that there seems to be no interest by Republicans in Congress or in the Executive Branch to investigate these allegations (which as stated, if true, would be among America's most disgusting acts and would make me deeply ashamed to be an American) is ... unfortunate. Add this to the myriad (over 1,000 last I checked) accusations of rape in these facilities, and you have a systemic problem that should be a DOJ priority. Instead we have the AG saying our priorities should be bringing up protesters on sedition charges and prominent GOP senators who think the DOJ should focus its efforts on censoring Netflix films that critique childhood sexuality. It's not TDS to suggest these things are connected, even if they're not immediately causal. 

It's pretty rough, and the fact that people are minimizing the accusations is pretty rough too. It just bums me out.

But it's also unfair to shame people into not voting for a third party over this. @halfmanhalfbronco is right in that the libertarian approach has long been to abolish these facilities and get rid of ICE either completely or to a large extent. So voting that ticket is a statement against these practices and a statement against ICE. I've pretty much decided to vote for Biden for a number of reasons, even with my extremely libertarian views. I will be happy to explain my decisions if they want, and explain why I don't come to the same conclusions they do on who to vote for. But I'm not going to shame people for voting for JJ.

 

Just to be clear.  The statement was made by Toons that no one would change their vote over this fact (if it is true).  Instead of just assuming a behavior about people, it seems reasonable to ask them if such a statement in in fact true.   
 

no value to the change or not change was made in the request.