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why trump will win again

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4 minutes ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

Woodrow Wilson and Honest Abe would like to have a word. Andrew Jackson outright told SCOTUS to shove it. 

Yeah I thought about Abe.  But the Civil War brought extenuating circumstances.  Not sure about Wilson and Jackson. Please elucidate.  

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22 minutes ago, sactowndog said:

Yeah I thought about Abe.  But the Civil War brought extenuating circumstances.  Not sure about Wilson and Jackson. Please elucidate.  

Wilson. Sedition act.  Espionage act.  Jailing a political rival for...being a political rival.

Jackson had the freaking Indian Removal Act.  Was maybe the first "nationalist" as we understand it today.  Waged war against congress and SCOTUS.

Ever heard of John Adams?

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38 minutes ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

*Laughs in John Adams.

I gave Johnny boy some clemency for how new the job was and most of his authoritarian tendencies went through the political process. The federalists were authoritarian as much if not more than Adams was.

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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50 minutes ago, sactowndog said:

What Roosevelt did to Japanese American citizens was despicable.  We have not had a national shame like that until Trump turning away legal green card holders at the border and separating children from parents to make a point.  

Man, if you thought that was bad wait till you hear about what we did the Filipinos after they dared to ask for their independence. 

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45 minutes ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Wilson. Sedition act.  Espionage act.  Jailing a political rival for...being a political rival.

Jackson had the freaking Indian Removal Act.  Was maybe the first "nationalist" as we understand it today.  Waged war against congress and SCOTUS.

Ever heard of John Adams?

Interesting.  
 

Wilson, Lincoln, Roosevelt and Adams both were in context of their respective major wars.  While it doesn’t excuse it, it does provide some context.  

the Indian removal act while disgusting, at the time Indians weren’t consider citizens or legal residents.  They were considered foreign governments with whom we were at war.   By your standard all the Presidents who presided over slavery would clearly be more authoritarian.  

I’m curious, accounting for the context of the times, not measuring them against current standards, how would you rank the Presidents on an authoritarian scale?

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Just now, sactowndog said:

Haha.  You’re welcome to provide your ranking and why also.  

Just saying I think causing the death of at least 250k Filipinos for wanting independence was at least a little worse then putting Japanese-Americans in camps.  

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4 minutes ago, SalinasSpartan said:

Just saying I think causing the death of at least 250k Filipinos for wanting independence was at least a little worse then putting Japanese-Americans in camps.  

Curious where you get your numbers.   Just read this article on it? 
 

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/philippine-independence-declared

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7 minutes ago, sactowndog said:

Curious where you get your numbers.   Just read this article on it? 
 

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/philippine-independence-declared

https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP13.HTM#3/
 

Well here is one, but you can find more on the googles. From what I gather the consensus is between 200,000-1,000,000 Filipinos deaths were attributed to the Philippine-American war. Some were due to famine and disease outbreaks during the war, but a decent amount of civilians were killed by the U.S. military. The article I cited gave a range of 25,000 to 487,000 civilians killed directly by the U.S. military. 
 

And again, this war was only fought because The Philippines wanted their independence, first from Spain and then from the United States. We declined, and beat them in to submission so we could, as U.S. President William McKinley would say, “civilize them”. 

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9 hours ago, SalinasSpartan said:

https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP13.HTM#3/
 

Well here is one, but you can find more on the googles. From what I gather the consensus is between 200,000-1,000,000 Filipinos deaths were attributed to the Philippine-American war. Some were due to famine and disease outbreaks during the war, but a decent amount of civilians were killed by the U.S. military. The article I cited gave a range of 25,000 to 487,000 civilians killed directly by the U.S. military. 
 

And again, this war was only fought because The Philippines wanted their independence, first from Spain and then from the United States. We declined, and beat them in to submission so we could, as U.S. President William McKinley would say, “civilize them”. 

Yeah that is a pretty huge range.  
 

I’m not sure fighting over territory or self determination, which was done quite often at that time, is the same as doing something to your own citizens.   Doesn’t mean I think we were saints but I don’t hold it against GB for fighting us to maintain control over the territories.   

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1 hour ago, sactowndog said:

Yeah that is a pretty huge range.  
 

I’m not sure fighting over territory or self determination, which was done quite often at that time, is the same as doing something to your own citizens.   Doesn’t mean I think we were saints but I don’t hold it against GB for fighting us to maintain control over the territories.   

Filipinos were under the control of the U.S.; the only reason they were not “U.S. citizens” is because we didn’t want them to be. They were U.S. nationals though. I find it fascinating that you think U.S. citizens being held in camps by the U.S. government is worse then U.S. nationals being murdered by the U.S. military. 
 

And that’s not even getting in to the million Filipino U.S. nationals that would be murdered during the Japanese occupation 40 years later as a direct result of the U.S. refusing to give the Philippines independence. 

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12 hours ago, sactowndog said:

Yeah I thought about Abe.  But the Civil War brought extenuating circumstances.  Not sure about Wilson and Jackson. Please elucidate.  

Jackson was a lot like Trump in that his personality subsumed a political party. He can be forgiven for this, and maybe this alone, because he was at the forefront of the party system we know today. The factional differences in the first party system in the early republic were more unlike our own party system today that its harder to grasp the seismic shift. Not so in Jackson’s time. By then patronage and party loyalty became preeminent in a way they had not been before. This was not Jackson’s fault, but he was the primary beneficiary. And unlike Trump, who after years of living with his bullshit I find to be an unserious person, Jackson was a deadly serious man. He believed in himself more than anything else, up to and including the law. And people followed him in droves.

Excepting the 18th century because everything was so new and untested, the Supreme Court was never weaker than it was under Jackson. They made a ruling against the state of Georgia that went against his wishes. He had no intention of enforcing it, and joked that if SCOTUS asked him to do so he would send Massachusetts militia to do the deed and bleed. This was a punitive notion, making citizens of a northern state potentially get massacred enforcing a law near a thousand miles away because he blamed them for opposing a policy he was in favor of. South Carolina, sensing a chance for further autonomy, pushed him by passing a law creating the nullification crisis. Jackson doubled back on his position in favor of state’s rights, declaring and shepherding through Congress a Bill greatly expanding the power of the Presidency to oppose internal threats to the government. It worked. Nullification theory died, federal supremacy was established, and article 3 was lifted from a limp arm of the constitution to essentially the word of god, all because Jackson saw it to the benefit of his authority.

That original Georgia law was rendered moot when Jackson got what he originally wanted with the Indian removal act. The man was literally willing to make war on what were ostensibly his political friends, to prove to his political enemies that so long as he reigned, he ruled.

Wilson sucks something awful but that might have to wait for another day.

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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1 hour ago, SalinasSpartan said:

Filipinos were under the control of the U.S.; the only reason they were not “U.S. citizens” is because we didn’t want them to be. They were U.S. nationals though. I find it fascinating that you think U.S. citizens being held in camps by the U.S. government is worse then U.S. nationals being murdered by the U.S. military. 
 

And that’s not even getting in to the million Filipino U.S. nationals that would be murdered during the Japanese occupation 40 years later as a direct result of the U.S. refusing to give the Philippines independence. 

Those Filipino’s didn’t stand a better chance of being murdered if they were independent than they already were under the dragon’s wing. We couldn’t stop the rising tide of the Japanese and we were there. They weren’t going to be able to hold off the Japanese empire any better on their own than we tried to collectively. The Philippines have a good grievance against us for our expansionism. But that doesn’t make us culpable of Japan’s crimes.   

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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19 hours ago, sactowndog said:

Yeah that was exactly my thought.  FDR was our first authoritarian President.  Trump is the 2nd.   

Wilson more closely resembled a Monarch then the bearerr of Democracy and Liberty.

He immediately resegregated the Civil Service and jailed the Suffragettes and other other anti war voices during the war.  

"We don't have evidence but, we have lot's of theories."

Americans Mayor

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15 hours ago, sactowndog said:

What Roosevelt did to Japanese American citizens was despicable.  We have not had a national shame like that until Trump turning away legal green card holders at the border and separating children from parents to make a point.  

Jacksons decision to go against SCOTUS in the Indian Treaty cases led directly to the Trail of Tears. Which ranks up there with the Bataan Death March.

"We don't have evidence but, we have lot's of theories."

Americans Mayor

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15 hours ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Wilson. Sedition act.  Espionage act.  Jailing a political rival for...being a political rival.

Jackson had the freaking Indian Removal Act.  Was maybe the first "nationalist" as we understand it today.  Waged war against congress and SCOTUS.

Ever heard of John Adams?

This is the same Andy Jackson whom Donnie fashions himself after

"We don't have evidence but, we have lot's of theories."

Americans Mayor

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14 hours ago, sactowndog said:

Interesting.  
 

Wilson, Lincoln, Roosevelt and Adams both were in context of their respective major wars.  While it doesn’t excuse it, it does provide some context.  

the Indian removal act while disgusting, at the time Indians weren’t consider citizens or legal residents.  They were considered foreign governments with whom we were at war.   By your standard all the Presidents who presided over slavery would clearly be more authoritarian.  

I’m curious, accounting for the context of the times, not measuring them against current standards, how would you rank the Presidents on an authoritarian scale?

Most every Prez has had his "Authoritarian Moments"

While I am a fan of TR and his square deal, he was brutal towards the Fillipinos, Colombians, and Panamanian, as well as a Colonialist.

WW is considered among the pantheon's of Presidential greats, but a hidden authoritarian streak that he used the war a cover for.

Washington had the Whiskey rebellion put down.

HH had the Bonus Army. 

Dick Cheney expanding Pres power

Nixon, LBJ, Trump are all Police State types.

Perhaps Eisenhower and Carter were the least Authoritarian ?

 

"We don't have evidence but, we have lot's of theories."

Americans Mayor

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4 hours ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

Those Filipino’s didn’t stand a better chance of being murdered if they were independent than they already were under the dragon’s wing. We couldn’t stop the rising tide of the Japanese and we were there. They weren’t going to be able to hold off the Japanese empire any better on their own than we tried to collectively. The Philippines have a good grievance against us for our expansionism. But that doesn’t make us culpable of Japan’s crimes.   

Would Japan have bothered attacking them if not for the U.S. military presence on the islands? Wasn’t every target on December 8th 1941 a territory of either the U.K. Or the U.S.?

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15 minutes ago, SalinasSpartan said:

Would Japan have bothered attacking them if not for the U.S. military presence on the islands? Wasn’t every target on December 8th 1941 a territory of either the U.K. Or the U.S.?

The Japanese weren’t particular about who claimed what in the pacific. An independent or a US held Philippines didn’t matter to them. The fact they existed to potentially be a jumping off point for anyone to attack Japanese imperial interest was enough to put the Philippines on the menu. 

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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