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Akkula

Next Stimulus Strategy

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Just now, happycamper said:

It isn't being framed as relief, though, as far as I've heard. It's being framed as stimulus for the recession we plopped in to. 

I agree it's stupid as relief, as stimulus? Probably one of the best bang for your buck stimu..li? we got

As long as my medical debt gets erased as well!

Reparations are the best bang for our buck.  

 

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10 minutes ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

As long as my medical debt gets erased as well!

Reparations are the best bang for our buck.  

 

heck yeah that would be an enormous benefit and I feel dumb for not thinking about it. Wipe out those two debts and you unleash an avalanche of consumer spending that buoys the economy for decades. @mugtang's debt jubilee, in the era of we need stimulus now, seems more and more workable; hell, we shoulda done it in 2008. 

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12 minutes ago, BYUcougfan said:

Nice straw man for a lot of arguments I wasn't making.  Hope you feel better getting all that off your chest.

I didn’t say you were making them. Your questions are fair ones. But it isn’t a straw man either. We really are being hampered by a call to inaction. Questions are great when they lead to better policy, But the bigger problem is that we’re in a triage situation and locked in a discussion about what we can’t do, even though the patient is hemorrhaging.

I say ditch the stimulus checks, forget payroll tax holidays, and focus on improving and extending PPP and unemployment insurance. Rather than blanket stimulus checks, add some sort of cash incentive to those who return to work.

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2 minutes ago, happycamper said:

heck yeah that would be an enormous benefit and I feel dumb for not thinking about it. Wipe out those two debts and you unleash an avalanche of consumer spending that buoys the economy for decades. @mugtang's debt jubilee, in the era of we need stimulus now, seems more and more workable; hell, we shoulda done it in 2008. 

It’s an interesting thought. I wonder what that would Cost?

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7 minutes ago, NVGiant said:

It’s an interesting thought. I wonder what that would Cost?

There’s a global debt reset coming soon.  Doesn’t matter. 

thelawlorfaithful, on 31 Dec 2012 - 04:01 AM, said:One of the rules I live by: never underestimate a man in a dandy looking sweater

 

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4 minutes ago, NVGiant said:

It’s an interesting thought. I wonder what that would Cost?

1.5 trillion for student loan debt.  81 billion for medical debt.

So about the same cost as my reparations idea.

For what we have spent on COVID so far, we could have forgiven all student loan debt, all medical debt and paid 50k reparations to every decedent of a slave. 

Problem is, does that fix anything?  Free college going forward?  Hmmmm, do we really want to "fix" the best university system, by far, on Earth?  People will still need medical care.  Or is this just a one time reset to bring us out of a recession?  Do we do this during every recession?  

 

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4 minutes ago, Bob said:

How is a debt jubilee fair to those responsible people that have already paid off their debt? Those people get f'ed in the a?

no, making lots more money than everyone else is its own reward ya greedy piggy

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26 minutes ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

1.5 trillion for student loan debt.  81 billion for medical debt.

So about the same cost as my reparations idea.

For what we have spent on COVID so far, we could have forgiven all student loan debt, all medical debt and paid 50k reparations to every decedent of a slave. 

Problem is, does that fix anything?  Free college going forward?  Hmmmm, do we really want to "fix" the best university system, by far, on Earth?  People will still need medical care.  Or is this just a one time reset to bring us out of a recession?  Do we do this during every recession?  

 

I don't think forgiving college loans would fix our immediate issues. But it could have long-term benefits. @mugtang is right. A reckoning on debt — likely both private debt, which is all but certain, and public debt, which is a bit less certain — is coming. 

That said, right now we should focus our resources on stimulus that addresses more immediate economic problems. And I don't think forgiving college loans, which would mostly benefit a group of people who are largely less affected economically by the pandemic (at least right now), really does much to address the unemployment crisis. Medical debt, on the other hand, might have some legs in or in the immediate aftermath of the pandemic. 

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3 minutes ago, NVGiant said:

I don't think forgiving college loans would fix our immediate issues. But it could have long-term benefits. @mugtang is right. A reckoning on debt — likely both private debt, which is all but certain, and public debt, which is a bit less certain — is coming. 

That said, right now we should focus our resources on stimulus that address more immediate economic problems. And I don't think forgiving college loans, which would mostly benefit a group of people who are largely less affected economically by the pandemic (at least right now), really does much to address the unemployment crisis. Medical debt, on the other hand, might have some legs. 

Plus, someone owns the asset we are going to magically wipe off the books.  There are two sides to this ledger and someone gets hurt, decreasing their participation in the economy.  

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3 minutes ago, Bob said:

 

First off, you guys are communists. Secondly, what about responsible people that decided not to incur debt they knew they wouldn't be able to pay off? Personal responsibility and all

No they aren’t communists.  People who lean left aren’t communists. 

thelawlorfaithful, on 31 Dec 2012 - 04:01 AM, said:One of the rules I live by: never underestimate a man in a dandy looking sweater

 

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Going into a lot more debt is not a reckoning on debt, it’s putting the reckoning off.

That said, for the time being we’re all commies now. The die has been cast and there is no way out of it.

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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1 minute ago, Bob said:

 

First off, you guys are communists. Secondly, what about responsible people that decided not to incur debt they knew they wouldn't be able to pay off? Personal responsibility and all

first, lol. the entire premise is that we're ejaculating money and anything - people, corporations, small businesses- to stimulate the economy. communists... typically don't put a lot of emphasis on monetary fiscal policy aimed at increasing consumer spending. All we're arguing about is what stimulus would best make capitalism work better for the least amount of debt incurred.

Secondly, that entire point about "capitalism working better for the least amount of debt incurred". What, you want a UBI as a thank you for being a part of a high earning family, because other people are proposing debt relief specifically aimed at increasing consumer spending?

Sounds like bob has sour grapes about anyone ever receiving benefits who aren't named bob

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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1 hour ago, Bob said:

How is a debt jubilee fair to those responsible people that have already paid off their debt? Those people get f'ed in the a?

I saw this as someone who has paid off their debt, sometimes doing the right thing isn't fair.  Not everyone who has debt is irresponsible for various reasons.  If it makes you feel any better, those that are will go into debt again.

In any case, are we really quibbling over the fact that the people who were getting the $600 unemployment checks may have been making more before?  That's less than $32k yearly.  Are we really not going to help anybody because there's a loophole that benefits really poor people?!?!?  Do you know how heartless that sounds?

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Boomers sucked out all of the money from higher ed to fund tax cuts and their spendthrift ways so that tuitions had to increase substantially and students had to get a huge loan to get a degree.  Instead of thinking of student loan forgiveness as some giveaway, perhaps it should be seen as what it really is...repayment of a debt to that generation.  It is time to collect.

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3 minutes ago, Bob said:

I'm one that's against ejaculating money for anyone at this time, so yeah.

Where was your criticism on airline bailouts? Literally the only criticism I've heard from you is whining that you made too much to get your $1200. Which... if you're making a lot of money, why do you need relief? Do you throw a hissy fit when someone with a broken leg gets opiates instead of you?

3 minutes ago, Bob said:

What the government needs to do is encourage people to get back and live their normal lives as this "pandemic" winds down. There were similar "pandemics" in 1958 and 1969, but no one even knew. Funny. 

Those pandemics weren't similar, and it isn't winding down. Also, you claim to want people to "get back to their normal lives", but you argue vociferously against any measure that would possibly ameliorate the pandemic. So... what do you actually want? You seem extraordinarily disingenuous in all of your arguments about covid.

3 minutes ago, Bob said:

 

Capitalism is supposed to reward hard work and innovation, not stupidity, as would be the case with a student debt jubilee. A medical debt jubilee would be a little more palatable, I guess.

Bob, you're either completely ignorant of what we're discussing or again being extraordinarily disingenuous. No, bailouts aren't capitalism. Nobody claimed they are. They're there  to allow the free market to do its thing, better, for a while so we don't have a depression. We're in a mixed system; we've been in a mixed system for the last 90 years; all of the most successful economies in the world in that time frame have been mixed systems. We spend of stuff like... roads, and bridges, and schools, and research, and social safety nets, and dams because that public spending allows the market to grow. A debt jubilee... would allow the market to grow. Would it be a good long term or recurring policy? No (there's something to be said that an economic system built to put its citizens in so much debt is structured poorly anyway but whatever). Which is why it hadn't been really discussed until the government told 1/5 the country they can't work, and so did every other country, and international trade slowed enormously as well as domestic consumption in an economic disaster without modern parallel. 

3 minutes ago, Bob said:

Capitalism never guaranteed equality, which is what you seem to want regardless of people's choices or circumstances.

Bob you're bitching and moaning about not getting free money just because other people are, not because you need it, and you lecture others on "equality"? gimme a break. We're discussing ways to not have a great depression, not about whether liddle bob feels left out

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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