Wyoguns Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 1 minute ago, retrofade said: So poor minorities in inner cities don't move out because they won't work hard and don't have personal accountability. Got it. Some yes... not all by any means. Quit being so obtuse Convert...errr I mean Retro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrofade Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 1 minute ago, Wyoguns said: Some yes... not all by any means. Quit being so obtuse Convert...errr I mean Retro I'm not being obtuse... that's literally what he said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NVGiant Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 1 hour ago, soupslam1 said: I don’t think anyone thinks relocation is the only solution. It was just stated as one possible solution and no one is discounting it is difficult. Regardless, like you say the solution is very complex. This issue has been decades if not centuries in forming and hopefully wont take as long to resolve. Unfortunately, it appears we’ve gone backwards in the last fifty years I don't think we've gone backwards. Violent crime rates are lower than they were 50 years ago, and much lower than they were 30 years ago. And the poverty rate is much lower. From more than 20% in 1960 to 11.8% in 2018. Obviously that fluctuates depending on the economic cycle, but it has remained between 11% and 15%, even during the economic crisis of 08-09. But, as you can see, we have plateaued with the poverty rate, which might feel like backsliding. And the crime rate has ticked up in recent years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
East Coast Aztec Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 6 minutes ago, BYUcougfan said: I am not arguing that it is a magic fix. But it can be a fix for some. There is poster after poster making it seem like moving is impossible. It is not. It is the usual push back you get any time you suggest that improving the lot of the poor might involve the poor putting in some work. The only answers can be racism and money. Anything approaching personal accountability gets this type of reaction. A mountain of reasons why it is not possible. Racism and money can be answers...just not the only answers. Otherwise we would see far better outcomes D.C, Atlanta, etc. I actually didn't interpret it that way. Because people move out now when they have money. It is a fact, so poster's are unlikely to be saying that none go anywhere. That just wouldn't make sense. However, recognizing that there would be problems with finding the resources to do so by the poor who have little resources isn't a sign that we are sealing their fate. In fact, the point of the discussion requested by the OP is to create dialogue on what steps can be done to lessen the violence for those who won't or currently are unable to leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BYUcougfan Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 12 minutes ago, retrofade said: So poor minorities in inner cities don't move out because they won't work hard and don't have personal accountability. Got it. If that is what you comprehended, then I kind of feel bad for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelawlorfaithful Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 5 hours ago, NVGiant said: Why? Did we fix generational poverty? Because if so, the Appalachias need some help. We don’t quite hear as much about them, though. No, even if that is possible, we haven’t. You’re reflex in rhetoric to pivot towards the poor in Appalachia speaks to my point. I haven’t polled them all or anything, but I’m confident in saying most white Americans don’t give a good +++++ if hillbillies in Appalachia don’t have a pot to piss in, and non-white Americans probably care even less. They, by and large, don’t want to live with them, they don’t want listen to their struggles, don’t care about their well being. And why would they? They have little in common. Reflexively couching the plight of the poor whites with that of other poor communities as a rhetorical strategy to get people to care about the plight of poor non-whites is a misstep. I think you do it in good faith, others not so much, but it doesn’t speak to anyone not already enlisted in the cause. I don’t have any great answer how to change that, and nobody with any flex has seen fit to ask me. I do know one thing that will be central to achieving the goal, if it truly is a goal, and once people learn to speak about it in those terms we will have movement on the subject. Men did not love Rome because it was great, Rome was great because men loved it. We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NVGiant Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 1 minute ago, thelawlorfaithful said: No, even if that is possible, we haven’t. You’re reflex in rhetoric to pivot towards the poor in Appalachia speaks to my point. I haven’t polled them all or anything, but I’m confident in saying most white Americans don’t give a good +++++ if hillbillies in Appalachia don’t have a pot to piss in, and it’s probably even less so for non-white Americans. They, by and large, don’t want to live with them, they don’t want listen to their struggles, don’t care about their well being. And why would they? They have little in common. Reflexively couching the plight of the poor whites with that of other poor communities as a rhetorical strategy to get people to care about the plight of poor non-whites is a misstep. I think you do it in good faith, others not so much, but it doesn’t speak to anyone not already enlisted in the cause. I don’t have any great answer how to change that, and nobody with any flex has seen fit to ask me. I do know one thing that will be central to achieving the goal, if it truly is a goal, and once people learn to speak about it in those terms we will have movement on the subject. Men did not love Rome because it was great, Rome was great because men loved it. The people not already enlisted in the cause have spent 10 pages saying everybody who argues being poor and relocating isn't as easy as it sounds want to keep black people in ghettos. It's not a misstep. Just attacking it from other angles. I can't make people empathize with the poor, but by using that rhetorical point, I can at least get them to face some of the issues of relocation: That wherever the generational poor relocate they will meet a segment of Americans who "don’t want to live with them, they don’t want listen to their struggles, don’t care about their well being. And why would they? They have little in common." And whether from Detroit or from Black Lung, West Virginia, that is a hurdle that they would face in relocating. Also I think you just don't like that authoritarian jab I took at you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NVGiant Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 2 hours ago, renoskier said: Yes it can be expensive and, as was mentioned in one of the articles NVGiant posted, one of the main hurdles is caused by our decentralized welfare system. Our welfare system is federally funded but administered by each individual state. On one hand, this makes sense because each state should in theory be more attuned to the needs of the communities within their state. However, for those who are "in the system", the result is that they can't move between states without facing a significant lapse in financial support. For many, this alone is a deal breaker. So, when many conservatives blame generational poverty on our failed welfare system, they aren't necessarily wrong but often site faulty logic, like "fathers would be forced to stay in relationships", to support their beliefs. Our welfare system isn't going away. Let's figure out ways to improve it. It was improved during the Clinton administration, so it is possible. If moving from dangerous or impoverished areas to locations with better economic prospects is considered a worthwhile goal, let's develop a program which encourages such movement. Crap. I missed this. This was a good post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happycamper Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 21 minutes ago, NVGiant said: I don't think we've gone backwards. Violent crime rates are lower than they were 50 years ago, and much lower than they were 30 years ago. And the poverty rate is much lower. From more than 20% in 1960 to 11.8% in 2018. Obviously that fluctuates depending on the economic cycle, but it has remained between 11% and 15%, even during the economic crisis of 08-09. But, as you can see, we have plateaued with the poverty rate, which might feel like backsliding. And the crime rate has ticked up in recent years. to go completely off tangent, I wish that stuff like the first graph would take in to account the fact that in the '60s police would routinely torture confessions out of people. I consider shit like that "violent crime" but it's impossible for it make it in to national statistics. Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NVGiant Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 1 minute ago, happycamper said: to go completely off tangent, I wish that stuff like the first graph would take in to account the fact that in the '60s police would routinely torture confessions out of people. I consider shit like that "violent crime" but it's impossible for it make it in to national statistics. That's a good point, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AztecSU Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 2 hours ago, AztecSU said: How did you relocate without work? Did you stay with someone until you had income? Still waiting for @BYUcougfan to answer these very simple questions instead of extrapolating meaning from others words that is an obvious stretch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelawlorfaithful Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 13 minutes ago, NVGiant said: The people not already enlisted in the cause have spent 10 pages saying everybody who argues being poor and relocating isn't as easy as it sounds want to keep black people in ghettos. It's not a misstep. Just attacking it from other angles. I can't make people empathize with the poor, but by using that rhetorical point, I can at least get them to face some of the issues of relocation: That wherever the generational poor relocate they will meet a segment of Americans who "don’t want to live with them, they don’t want listen to their struggles, don’t care about their well being. And why would they? They have little in common." And whether from Detroit or from Black Lung, West Virginia, that is a hurdle that they would face in relocating. Also I think you just don't like that authoritarian jab I took at you. Well a lot of that is arguing with Stunner, which is a lot like sitting in a rocking chair. It gives you something to do, but doesn’t get you anywhere. I took no offense to the authoritarian jab. Even I know I’d be ghengis khan if given absolute power, I’ve said as much. We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSUTOP25 Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 3 minutes ago, thelawlorfaithful said: Well a lot of that is arguing with Stunner, which is a lot like sitting in a rocking chair. It gives you something to do, but doesn’t get you anywhere. I took no offense to the authoritarian jab. Even I know I’d be ghengis khan if given absolute power, I’ve said as much. You’d look a lot like this Genghis Khan: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NVGiant Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 3 minutes ago, thelawlorfaithful said: Well a lot of that is arguing with Stunner, which is a lot like sitting in a rocking chair. It gives you something to do, but doesn’t get you anywhere. I took no offense to the authoritarian jab. Even I know I’d be ghengis khan if given absolute power, I’ve said as much. A rocking chair indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NVGiant Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 1 minute ago, BSUTOP25 said: You’d look a lot like this Genghis Khan: That's not accurate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NVGiant Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 1 hour ago, BYUcougfan said: I am not arguing that it is a magic fix. But it can be a fix for some. There is poster after poster making it seem like moving is impossible. It is not. It is the usual push back you get any time you suggest that improving the lot of the poor might involve the poor putting in some work. The only answers can be racism and money. Anything approaching personal accountability gets this type of reaction. A mountain of reasons why it is not possible. Racism and money can be answers...just not the only answers. Otherwise we would see far better outcomes D.C, Atlanta, etc. Funny that you should mention those two cities. While both cities are still above the national average, both Atlanta and Washington D.C. have made huge strides in regard to crime over the last 30 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halfmanhalfbronco Posted July 7, 2020 Author Share Posted July 7, 2020 10 minutes ago, thelawlorfaithful said: Well a lot of that is arguing with Stunner, which is a lot like sitting in a rocking chair. It gives you something to do, but doesn’t get you anywhere. I took no offense to the authoritarian jab. Even I know I’d be ghengis khan if given absolute power, I’ve said as much. Hey now, the mongols gave strong support to peasants and the peasant economy in the areas they conquered. I mean, after the rape and murder, those people thrived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halfmanhalfbronco Posted July 7, 2020 Author Share Posted July 7, 2020 13 minutes ago, BSUTOP25 said: You’d look a lot like this Genghis Khan: LMAO, John Wayne's "The Conqueror". Greatest damn thing. "Suh-buh-die did...you..betray..me to the tar-tars?" (John Wayne voice and slow drawl) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happycamper Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 Just now, halfmanhalfbronco said: Hey now, the mongols gave strong support to peasants and the peasant economy in the areas they conquered. I mean, after the rape and murder, those people thrived. they mostly just hated... city people Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSUTOP25 Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 3 minutes ago, happycamper said: they mostly just hated... city people The Mongols did leave Fallon alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...