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halfmanhalfbronco

Ok, so let's have a meaningful talk about inner city violence.

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6 minutes ago, #1Stunner said:

As stated, a fast, tried and true prescription on how to escape a ghetto, or "structural racism" (like redline areas), and particularly violence, is to move from the failed area, to a better area.  Go to a new State or Country!

Didn't you do that very thing?

You concluded that the United States was a failed country, with oppressive laws, and you immigrated to what you believe is a better Country.  Costa Rica, right?

And I assume since you hate rich people, you aren't self-loathing, and aren't rich, right? (We both dislike rich people).  And yet you found a way to do it... Bravo.

Not sure why you suggest that certain people are not as smart as you, and can't do the same.  It worked for you...why not others?

Plus, that approach might even avoid needing more government welfare thrown at crime ridden areas.  If more people move out, it might create unused property, and open up a prior crime filled ghetto to much needed new development.  (See Detroit).  Then you get mixed income density, instead of all poor people in one area (sometimes called gentrification).

https://reason.com/2016/12/10/why-dont-people-who-are-stuck-in-depressed-appalachian-towns-just-leave/

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Just now, NVGiant said:

Is this article a making excuses?

Sorry, I don't buy the excuses for most people.

If Appalachia is intolerable, move to Wyoming or some place better.  This is the American dream.  Hell it's also now reality in the EU.

We have brave Latino immigrants arriving here every day with only the shirt on their backs, fleeing their own Country, with crime and poverty.

Coming from an immigrant family myself, it's painful, but it can be done.  Yes, you will have to likely now lawns and be a custodian (I've done both jobs for a few years!!).  But you get a better life, and more wealth.

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2 minutes ago, #1Stunner said:

Is this article a making excuses?

Sorry, I don't buy the excuses for most people.

If Appalachia is intolerable, move to Wyoming or some place better.  This is the American dream.  Hell it's also now reality in the EU.

We have brave Latino immigrants arriving here every day with only the shirt on their backs, fleeing their own Country, with crime and poverty.

Coming from an immigrant family myself, it's painful, but it can be done.  Yes, you will have to likely now lawns and be a custodian (I've done both jobs for a few years!!).  But you get a better life, and more wealth.

Excuses? Or trying to understand what is involved, especially if you have never been there yourself. Here is an even better writer, Nick Kristoff, who just wrote a book on the  subject of rural poverty. And here is an older column that may help:
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/14/opinion/sunday/nicholas-kristof-its-not-just-about-bad-choices.html?referringSource=articleShare

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53 minutes ago, BSUTOP25 said:

That’s anecdotal. DOJ data shows that African Americans commit more than half the violent crime in the country and a vast majority of the victims are other African Americans. 

that is true but at 1,462 at around 15.4% should not be ignored.

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3 minutes ago, NVGiant said:

Excuses? Or trying to understand what is involved, especially if you have never been there yourself. Here is an even better writer, Nick Kristoff, who just wrote a book on the  subject of rural poverty. And here is an older column that may help:
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/14/opinion/sunday/nicholas-kristof-its-not-just-about-bad-choices.html?referringSource=articleShare

Stop making excuses, and arguing that poor people are bound to the oppressive 21st century plantation (ghetto).  They have the right and ability to leave.

Poor people can AND do move all the time.  I know from personal experience.

And aren't you from Nevada?!?  Where do you think Nevada got it's population from over the past 40 years?  New move ins.

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10 minutes ago, #1Stunner said:

Stop making excuses, and arguing that poor people are bound to the oppressive 21st century plantation (ghetto).  They have the right and ability to leave.

Poor people can AND do move all the time.  I know from personal experience.

And aren't you from Nevada?!?  Where do you think Nevada got it's population from over the past 40 years?  New move ins.

You think I’m arguing that? I’m trying to explain why and how it happens. How poverty traps are created and the psychology behind it. I know more about this from experience than you’ll ever understand. Try to understand it so you can change it, or shut up and go about your day. Because your opinion is meaningless unless you know what is behind it.

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1 minute ago, renoskier said:

Apparently, solving the problem of inner city violence is really very simple. Everyone must move out of the inner city. :hmmm:

Taught to you by people who wouldn’t know a thing about it and apparently have no interest in learning what is behind it.

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11 minutes ago, NVGiant said:

Excuses? Or trying to understand what is involved, especially if you have never been there yourself. Here is an even better writer, Nick Kristoff, who just wrote a book on the  subject of rural poverty. And here is an older column that may help:
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/14/opinion/sunday/nicholas-kristof-its-not-just-about-bad-choices.html?referringSource=articleShare

We have various Trumpists and Jackasses in this country who just don't want to understand.  Just have to overpower them at the ballot box but with the failure of Trumpism and the last two disaster Republican presidencies this is going to get easier and easier.  Their brand has failed....

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35 minutes ago, East Coast Aztec said:

A year or two of mandatory service for every young adult would be so costly just to screen for violent tendencies, health, and criminal records the trade off with cost would already be a nightmare.  Then those that do slip through the cracks (which will likely be magnitudes worse than current screening) now have spent a couple of (very expensive) years on the low-end of the military spectrum where they are trained in weapons and tactics (at least Marines) while still getting kicked around as a boot could result in hell in the streets.   The mandatory service could become one of the most deadly policies in our nations history.  A nation full of guns, and now they all know how to fight, shoot from long range, and do MOUT.  I don't want people who never chose to join and are probably unhappy with it to now be that trained.  It can work in other countries that don't have gun rights like we do, but I am very hesitant, and in fact, resistant to that.  It doesn't make sense economically, socially, or strategically, while there are likely more productive options available to still serve your community/country.

 

Lots to address here.  Excuse me for breaking it up into little pieces....

I think the country becomes safer is everyone is trained at a basic level how to fight.   A broad based population with some basic training is what our founders originally envisioned.   Yes to @BSUTOP25's point it has to be everyone.   No college deferments etc.  The screening we have right now is pretty bad for violent tendencies, mental health, and criminal records.  I suspect the armed forces would only improve it.  Gun rights in the hands of everyday trained people are not a bad thing.   Where this society fails completely are the loopholes that allow guns to get in the hands of the wrong people and only the most enthusiastic ever get trained.

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7 minutes ago, renoskier said:

Apparently, solving the problem of inner city violence is really very simple. Everyone must move out of the inner city. :hmmm:

Pretty dumb argument, eh?  

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Guest #1Stunner
2 minutes ago, NVGiant said:

You think I’m arguing that? I’m trying to explain why and how it happens. How poverty traps are created and the psychology behind it.

I know more about this from experience then you’ll ever understand. Try to understand it so you can change it, or shut up and go about your day. Because your opinion is meaningless unless you know what is behind it.

^^^ Listen to you, insisting that it is almost impossible for poor people to leave to 21st Century Plantation (Ghetto), and that we need to just resolve that they are going to be there forever.... 

NOPE..

Maybe the message they need to hear is exactly what I am saying (and which you are attempting to shut down).   Tell people that moving IS an option.   Time to address the psychology and tell them to get out of Dodge if Dodge is failing them. 

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18 minutes ago, sactowndog said:

that is true but at 1,462 at around 15.4% should not be ignored.

Not saying it should be it should be ignored. My original point was that violent crime can be tackled from multiple angles and black on black violent crime needs to be addressed.

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Just now, #1Stunner said:

^^^ Listen to you, insisting that it is almost impossible for poor people to leave to 21st Century Plantation (Ghetto), and that we need to just resolve that they are going to be there forever.... 

NOPE..

Maybe the message they need to hear is exactly what I am saying (and which you are attempting to shut down).   Tell people that moving IS an option.   Time to address the psychology and tell them to get out of Dodge if Dodge is failing them. 

Go for it. Go Make a difference. Go to the inner city and offer a poor person a place to stay in your house. I’ve done this by hosting a displaced family from New Orleans after Katrina. The wonderful family stayed about six months before eventually leaving for home. He must be dumb. My mom did this with a homeless couple in Vegas. But you should do it. Show them how to live right. Because I don’t think you’re reaching anybody on this board.

Anyway, whether you’re ignorant or trolling, I think I’m good if you’re not willing to have a genuine conversation.

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5 minutes ago, BSUTOP25 said:

Not saying it should be it should be ignored. My original point was that violent crime can be tackled from multiple angles and black on black violent crime needs to be addressed.

I think we largely agree.

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This is actually one of the better threads i have seen on this board in awhile.  I agree in general with points such as better education,  reform our system that locks people up for non violent crimes and decimates families, encourage investment for businesses in low income area, etc..  The number one area i would focus on long term is education, and that is a rabbit hole once you start bringing up specifics.  One thing that hasn't been discussed though is the race issue we have in this country in certain areas.  So i will share a story.

I moved to midwest after college after growing up in the southwest.  This was many moons ago and i ended up moving back to the land of the sun.  I had never lived in a city that was roughly half white and half black though.  That's point number one.  I had also never lived in a state whose entire economy had been tied to one industry.  Entire cities had been built around the auto industry.  When those manufacturing jobs and plants left,  downtowns were devastated.  People flocked to the suburbs and the poor, in the case of the city i moved to, blacks were left to inner city.  It goes deeper than that though.  There was almost an unwritten rule of you stay in your lane and we'll stay in ours.  A river divided the have and have nots where i lived.  You had entire high schools separated by a few miles that were either almost all white or almost all black.  Now, you are sitting in Wyoming or Utah or NM and saying so what.  What does this have to do with solving the problem.

When generations of people grow up living next to each other, but not living with each other at all then it is tough to one day say just play nice together.  That is the racial element.  Many people from the suburbs tend to look down on those that have been left behind.  There is a belief they are lazy or don't want a better life.  I never got over going to a high school basketball game where one side of the gym was all white with white players and the other side all black with black players.  How does that even happen?  From the outside, it just seemed so wrong to see races divided like that.  But to people who grew up in those areas, that life is just normal on both sides.  There is a mentality in those cities that exists that has to change to allow people to think of a world where a city isn't divided by race.  

How do you break the cycle is the discussion and there are a lot of good ideas in this thread.  Reinventing those inner cities where there is so much violence and lack of opportunity is a tremendous challenge.  Just a topic like school vouchers is fraught with challenges and unintended consequences, despite the best intentions.  As is reform in our judicial system.  As is welfare reform.  It will take tremendous leadership at the federal, state, and city level to make progress.  But this is a LONG term problem that will take decades to fix.  I am encouraged by the tens of thousands that came out and peacefully protested recently.  It's going to take a change in mindset by the masses, working in collaboration with government, to make real positive change.  And for those that grew up on southwest - places like Albq, El Paso, Las Cruces, Tucson, Phoenix, and probably up through states like Colorado, Wyoming, Idaho, it's tough to explain the racial divide you see in some of these states and huge cities unless you've lived in those areas.  The racial challenges are enormous in parts of our country.  For a lot of those commenting, they will never see it first hand.  

Good ideas and discussion on this thread for sure.  

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16 minutes ago, renoskier said:

Apparently, solving the problem of inner city violence is really very simple. Everyone must move out of the inner city. :hmmm:

 

7 minutes ago, Akkula said:

Pretty dumb argument, eh?  

 

Do we not have immigrants from Latin America doing this very thing, every day?   Leaving inner city violence and poverty for the United States?

Are you guys both telling them that they should not be doing this, and that it won't solve their problems?

Your message seems circular.   You argue it is good for Latinos to flee the ghetto, but bad for poor people in the United States?!?

 

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56 minutes ago, Akkula said:

Really, you think so?  Money literally rains down on white kids for generations.  The best schooling, extra curricular activities, private tutors, everything.  When that happens for generations that is called structural racism.  

Let's take a black kid with loving parents and "rain money on them" and give a white kid with loving parents a public housing voucher and some food stamps and see who ends up better.

We have never "rained money" on the poor or minorities.  We are actually pretty stingy if you look across the world.  We take from the poor and give to the rich...class warfare.

Then we get these white people who were born on third base and think they hit a triple acting smugly about how gifted and talented they are because the live in a McMansion since money has literally been "raining down" on them and their family for generations.

If what you are saying is true, then the D.C. school system would have fantastic results.  They don't.  Money alone does not solve the problem.  It is not a miracle cure.

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2017 Crime stats for the FBI. If you look there are categories where whites are more likely to commit a particular type of crime, and others where that is true of black citizens. However, my take away is that the violent crimes that blacks are being charged with and other stats regarding who they commit those crimes against points to violence around competition. Probably competing for black market drug turf. Sure kids today have it better and there should be less and less need for this but when a culture rises up in redlined slums its gonna take awhile to dismantle that culture. 

On the other hand you have far more property and fraud type crimes from whites. But is that because they have more opportunities to commit those crimes or because they are more likely to be deceitful than blacks? I only point this out because I don't believe there is actually much difference between one and blacks in terms of humanity...but there are drastic differences in wealth and community prioritization. 

 

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017/tables/table-43

 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, NVGiant said:

Go for it. Go Make a difference. Go to the inner city and offer a poor person a place to stay in your house. I’ve done this by hosting a displaced family from New Orleans after Katrina. The wonderful family stayed about six months before eventually leaving for home. He must be dumb. My mom did this with a homeless couple in Vegas. But you should do it. Show them how to live right. Because I don’t think you’re reaching anybody on this board.

Anyway, whether you’re ignorant or trolling, I think I’m good if you’re not willing to have a genuine conversation.

You aren't looking for a genuine conversation.  You basically linked an article and told him he is ignorant and has no idea what he is talking about.  You were not looking for a conversation.  You were looking for him to agree with you.

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