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halfmanhalfbronco

Ok, so let's have a meaningful talk about inner city violence.

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Guest #1Stunner
29 minutes ago, East Coast Aztec said:

It helps individually, but doesn't really speak to how inner-city violence can be curbed.  You do all of that, and you probably move out of that area, the inner city violence changes none.  

It's a weird circle.

People move out of the ghetto, to better places (less crime).  They can improve their lives by leaving and starting a life elsewhere.

Then the void sometimes causes the result of redevelopment / new diversity to fill the void (i.e., gentrification, more affluent people moving back to the ghetto neighborhood), which is then oddly opposed as "racism".  I guess racial diversity can be seen as bad...

Kind of a no win situation with some people. 

But regardless, any well-intentioned socialism program (throwing free money at the problem) will take decades to see any results, if at all.  Live is too short to live in a ghetto waiting for government help.  

 

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1 hour ago, East Coast Aztec said:

It helps individually, but doesn't really speak to how inner-city violence can be curbed.  You do all of that, and you probably move out of that area, the inner city violence changes none.  

The inner city doesn't shoot people, individuals do.  There's no formulation of laws, resources and government assistance that will "fix" people who engage in the sort of activity we're talking about.  It will take a cultural shift.

We've done it before. in  few decades, smoking went from something everyone does to an activity actively shunned and discourages at every strata of society.

30 years ago, anal sex between dudes was thought of as disgusting.  Now its practitioners are a protected and celebrated class.

The point is that as a society,large shifts in behavior are successfully engineered over the course of a couple of generations.

In fact, what the list is, as the author puts it:

Quote

These basic cultural precepts reigned from the late 1940s to the mid-1960s. They could be followed by people of all backgrounds and abilities, especially when backed up by almost universal endorsement. Adherence was a major contributor to the productivity, educational gains, and social coherence of that period.

So the behaviors we see now, fifty years hence, were by and large nowhere in evidence fifty years ago.  we can get back to it but everyone has to buy in.  Given the absolute degenerate freaks that control the cultural heights in Hollywood, the Amerikka hating left-wing dipshits that run academia and the bottomless pile of corrupt reprobates that run the government, ALL of whom need a dysfunctional, ill-educated, dependent class upon which  to build wealth and status, I'm not hopeful the will is there to turn the ship

“Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.”

-Richard Feynman

"When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators."

-P.J. O’Rourke

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Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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7 minutes ago, SDSUfan said:

The inner city doesn't shoot people, individuals do.  There's no formulation of laws, resources and government assistance that will "fix" people who engage in the sort of activity we're talking about.  It will take a cultural shift.

We've done it before. in  few decades, smoking went from something everyone does to an activity actively shunned and discourages at every strata of society.

30 years ago, anal sex between dudes was thought of as disgusting.  Now its practitioners are a protected and celebrated class.

The point is that as a society,large shifts in behavior are successfully engineered of the course of a couple of generations.

In fact, what the list is, as the author puts it:

So the behaviors we see now, fifty years hence, were by and large nowhere in evidence fifty years ago.  we can get back to it but everyone has to buy in.  Given the absolute degenerate freaks that control the cultural heights in Hollywood, the Amerikka hating left-wing dipshits that run academia and the bottomless pile of corrupt reprobates that run the government, ALL of whom need a dysfunctional, ill-educated, dependent class upon which  to build wealth and status, I'm not hopeful the will is there to turn the ship

Your ideal is a +++++ing hellscape dude

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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17 minutes ago, #1Stunner said:

You mean rent an apartment?  No problem with that.

No shame in finding a landscaping job.  I did that job for a few years.

+++++ing brilliant....:Clapping:You may have not only solved inner city violence but also homelessness as well!

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13 minutes ago, happycamper said:

Your ideal is a +++++ing hellscape dude

The horror!

Everyone getting and staying married, not having kids out of wedlock, working hard and obeying the law!

 

 

 

 

 

“Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.”

-Richard Feynman

"When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators."

-P.J. O’Rourke

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11 minutes ago, SDSUfan said:

The inner city doesn't shoot people, individuals do.  There's no formulation of laws, resources and government assistance that will "fix" people who engage in the sort of activity we're talking about.  It will take a cultural shift.

We've done it before. in  few decades, smoking went from something everyone does to an activity actively shunned and discourages at every strata of society.

30 years ago, anal sex between dudes was thought of as disgusting.  Now its practitioners are a protected and celebrated class.

The point is that as a society,large shifts in behavior are successfully engineered of the course of a couple of generations.

In fact, what the list is, as the author puts it:

So the behaviors we see now, fifty years hence, were by and large nowhere in evidence fifty years ago.  we can get back to it but everyone has to buy in.  Given the absolute degenerate freaks that control the cultural heights in Hollywood, the Amerikka hating left-wing dipshits that run academia and the bottomless pile of corrupt reprobates that run the government, ALL of whom need a dysfunctional, ill-educated, dependent class upon which  to build wealth and status, I'm not hopeful the will is there to turn the ship

50-years ago, women were secretaries at best, but essentially were forced to stay in the house.  Wages were commiserate with cost-of-living, which just is not the case anymore.  Jobs were stable, especially blue-collar, and the middle-class was respected.  It didn't take a degree for most jobs that now need one.  The war on drugs didn't exist, and the use of the judicial system to punish the poor was not prevalent.  Inner cities still had good schools, and the neighborhood's housing wasn't completely dilapidated.  White flight wasn't at its apex, removing wealth from the inner city.  Also the government was implicit in the segregation of races, of oppressing minorities and the poor, and their was no social media to show all the bad things that were taking place.

The idyllic America was a myth to most, and the economy is completely different and there is no return to that.  So if we are trying to stay on topic of how to curb inner city violence, saying a return to the past and bootstrap will not solve current problems.  How do we solve current problems in the current context?  How do we maintain family nucleus while still allowing women to work, which they need to to cover the cost of living?  How do we promote work ethic in neighborhoods where the best job pays $10/hr as a manager at Popeyes, when the entitlements of welfare pays more?  Why think about a trade, when you don't have a way into the field because you don't know folks who can get you into the job?  How can you move away to a place with better job prospects when you have $100 in your savings?  How can a family have any success when they live in high-crime, low jobs, no family elsewhere, no money, and no enticing resume?   I ask those questions so as to frame my earlier post.

 

I am not trying to dismiss what you say, because if the environment is there to succeed, then the things you mention are key components to achieve.  

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15 minutes ago, East Coast Aztec said:

50-years ago, women were secretaries at best, but essentially were forced to stay in the house.  Wages were commiserate with cost-of-living, which just is not the case anymore.  Jobs were stable, especially blue-collar, and the middle-class was respected.  It didn't take a degree for most jobs that now need one.  The war on drugs didn't exist, and the use of the judicial system to punish the poor was not prevalent.  Inner cities still had good schools, and the neighborhood's housing wasn't completely dilapidated.  White flight wasn't at its apex, removing wealth from the inner city.  Also the government was implicit in the segregation of races, of oppressing minorities and the poor, and their was no social media to show all the bad things that were taking place.

The idyllic America was a myth to most, and the economy is completely different and there is no return to that.  So if we are trying to stay on topic of how to curb inner city violence, saying a return to the past and bootstrap will not solve current problems.  How do we solve current problems in the current context?  How do we maintain family nucleus while still allowing women to work, which they need to to cover the cost of living?  How do we promote work ethic in neighborhoods where the best job pays $10/hr as a manager at Popeyes, when the entitlements of welfare pays more?  Why think about a trade, when you don't have a way into the field because you don't know folks who can get you into the job?  How can you move away to a place with better job prospects when you have $100 in your savings?  How can a family have any success when they live in high-crime, low jobs, no family elsewhere, no money, and no enticing resume?   I ask those questions so as to frame my earlier post.

 

I am not trying to dismiss what you say, because if the environment is there to succeed, then the things you mention are key components to achieve.  

All of these things are true but not central to the discussion.  changing ones behaivior doesn't require the clock to be reset. It requires that society no longer accept the obvious dysfunction in these communities  and begin a cultural shift away from the attitudes and morals that foster it.

Quote

“The central conservative truth is that it is culture, not politics, that determines the success of a society. The central liberal truth is that politics can change a culture and save it from itself.”
— Daniel Patrick Moynihan in Family and Nationir?t=thefabimaxiwe-20&l=am2&o=1&a=015130 — The 1985 Godkin Lectures at Harvard University.

BTW; The best job at Popeye's isn't the $10/hr guy, it's his boss.

Work is its own reward. Good behavior is its own reward.

Stay in school.

Don't break the law.

Don't have kids out of wedlock.

Get a skill

Work hard

These central truths are in reach for EVERYONE. It doesn't take genius. It takes delaying gratification, eating shit sandwiches and getting up the next day and doing it again.

 

 

“Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.”

-Richard Feynman

"When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators."

-P.J. O’Rourke

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53 minutes ago, SDSUfan said:

All of these things are true but not central to the discussion.  changing ones behaivior doesn't require the clock to be reset. It requires that society no longer accept the obvious dysfunction in these communities  and begin a cultural shift away from the attitudes and morals that foster it.

 

None of my ideas were political, rather community-based ideas.  Although you say a neighborhood doesn't commit crime, individuals do, dismissing the neighborhood as a key to improving individuals doesn't seem like a rational decision.  What you are suggesting is that people change behavior.  Okay, how do we do that?  You are stating objectives, I am suggesting ways to get to the objectives. 

 

ETA:  I see you made an edit, but still have literally not responded to the topic's question.  In fact you have done the opposite and went with the bootstrap comment which is rather simplistic and again doesn't address the OP.

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2 hours ago, #1Stunner said:

Why would people choose to remain in such a place.   Why wait decades for government to try and affect and change this?!?!   Life is too short!!!!

Time to move to a new place (you took that very approach on this when you felt the United States was a failed country, and left).

So your solution to inner city violence is literally every resident should just move?

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1 hour ago, SDSUfan said:

All of these things are true but not central to the discussion.  changing ones behaivior doesn't require the clock to be reset. It requires that society no longer accept the obvious dysfunction in these communities  and begin a cultural shift away from the attitudes and morals that foster it.

BTW; The best job at Popeye's isn't the $10/hr guy, it's his boss.

Work is its own reward. Good behavior is its own reward.

Stay in school.

Don't break the law.

Don't have kids out of wedlock.

Get a skill

Work hard

These central truths are in reach for EVERYONE. It doesn't take genius. It takes delaying gratification, eating shit sandwiches and getting up the next day and doing it again.

 

 

And what do we do with all the folks who don't obey all of these wonderful rules?

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1 hour ago, SDSUfan said:

The horror!

Everyone getting and staying married, not having kids out of wedlock, working hard and obeying the law!

 

 

 

 

 

No gays, no cussing, no divorce, minorities knowing to kowtow! All to idolize a past neither you nor the author experienced!

All in order, right?

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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Just now, renoskier said:

And what do we do with all the folks who don't obey all of these wonderful rules?

Never mind "what if the law is monstrous " 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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1 hour ago, SDSUfan said:

The horror!

Everyone getting and staying married, not having kids out of wedlock, working hard and obeying the law!

 

 

 

 

 

Sounds boring. Of course, I've "disobeyed" all 4 of those from time to time and have still done great financially.

No guilt but white privilege is a real thing.

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14 minutes ago, renoskier said:

And what do we do with all the folks who don't obey all of these wonderful rules?

We all get to have fun, very far away from dog whistling +++++wits like him. 

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6 hours ago, BSUTOP25 said:

The “justice” system has led to higher rates of poverty and broken homes in black communities with inequitable administration of charges, convictions, and sentencing. That is indisputable. 

I would add immigration enforcement.  Taking a parent from a child for crimes committed years ago only exacerbates the problems.  To many conservatives talk about fathers but turn the other way.  We need family friendly policies across immigration, welfare, justice etc.  

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6 hours ago, BSUTOP25 said:

Man, I don’t agree with that. Incentivize service but don’t make it mandatory. Or am I misinterpreting what you’re saying?

I would make it mandatory.  Everyone should have some military training and if we had mandatory military service we would get in less dumb wars.  

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3 hours ago, #1Stunner said:

Why would people choose to remain in such a place.   Why wait decades for government to try and affect and change this?!?!   Life is too short!!!!

Time to move to a new place (you took that very approach on this when you felt the United States was a failed country, and left).

It costs money to move.  Hard to do that if you don’t have two Nickels to rub together.

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5 hours ago, Los_Aztecas said:

1) SOME money comes from the state, some from federal. Local is generally half, depending on state.  Here is a link that will show you per student spending and how it correlates with poverty.

2) Yes, it is popular among people from a lower socioeconomic status. But does it work? https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2017/05/12/520111511/the-promise-and-peril-of-school-vouchers

3) Why do you think our education system is failing? My observations are

  1. Kids at disparate learning levels being in one classroom. 
  2. Lack of engagement from students and parents
  3. Lack of resources (technological, class size, ect)

Most of these require resources to fix. Kids are passed along regardless of educational level until they reach middle/high school. By then, the ones that are behind are too far behind they will never be able to catch up. You can't force parents to be engaged, but you can invest more money in after school programs, tutoring, ect. The argument is because social learning is more important than the material and holding them behind creates more problems than it solves. I would tend to agree that there needs to be more accountability within the system, and I would be open to any change that improves education for children. However we definitely need to invest more money, not less, in education.

 

This doesn’t account for donations like the couple who donated 1M to build a pool at our high school.  Not much of that in the inner city.  

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Eliminate generational poverty. 

That's the simplest way to sum up what everyone (who isn't an idiot) has been saying in this thread. 

 

There's many ways to do it, but all of them cost money. A lot of money. This is something that most of white America is unable to deal with yet. Maybe we'll get there one day. 

On 12/1/2016 at 12:26 PM, WyomingCoog said:

I own a vehicle likely worth more than everything you own combined and just flew first class (including a ticket for a 2 1/2 year old), round trip to Las Vegas and I'm not 35 yet. When you accomplish something outside of finishing a book, let me know. When's the last time you saw a 2 year old fly first class in their own seat? Don't tell me about elite.  

28 minutes ago, NorCalCoug said:

I’d happily compare IQ’s with you any day of the week.

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