Ok, so let's have a meaningful talk about inner city violence.

[East Coast Aztec]

I posted this on another thread

Quote

I think one of the first things is, while recognizing that black and minorities are affected worse by this, recognizing poverty is an American issue, and needs to be addressed as such.  Giving one subsect of a group will only breed contempt, and will in turn be more divisive.  We see it with backlash to affirmative action, brutality protests, and hate crime laws.  I think the harsh truth is that we cannot put income levels, home ownership and wealth accumulation at even levels across the spectrum.  It is what it is.  Instead work towards and invest in an environment void of discrimination at all levels and every angle, in the job market, the lending market, the courtrooms and police.  I know people hate "bootstrap" talk, but goal achievement is powerful and is something to pass down in the household.  Build up the opportunities to achieve and things will change.  A previously poor family with no history of working their way up the economic ladder need an environment to learn skills, access to network through a career path and be rewarded accordingly to be able to provide for the family, reduce stressors, and be an example of a positive figure, and it needs to be in numbers.

The age old "give a man a fish... teach a man to fish..." scenario.

You will not stop violence overnight.  It takes recognition that people move when they have the ability to do so, and if you lived in a violent area, moving away is safer for your family.  That continues the vacuum of little investment in the inner city.  Most of the inner city is either public housing or rental properties or dilapidated housing.  If we want better inner city neighborhoods, there needs to be stability in those neighborhoods.  This is why a certain level of gentrification is necessary.  The more homeowners there are is going to entice businesses to be there, for tax dollars to fund schools, community centers, and local neighborhood assets.  Police does play a role, and the current conversation is relevant for reforms to police.  Neighborhoods need to be confident in the police to come out against criminal activity without fear that there will be retaliation from those criminals with no help from the police, or that they didn't just sign off on bad cops using your words to go after innocent folks in the community, or that they themselves aren't harassed by officers.  

The key is opportunity in the neighborhoods, and by and large it woefully lacks.  A good job is hawing cell phones or working at fast food joint.  Good-paying jobs are not going to be there, and banks are still reluctant to lend in those neighborhoods, doing the bare minimum to satisfy the Community Reinvestment Act.  Community and vocational colleges in inner cities are typically under-enrolled, have low graduation, and have low placement percentages for graduates.  One likely factor is that industries are not there to work with the schools to introduce new technologies, apprenticeships and internships, or jobs when they graduate.  Without those pipelines, there is no incentive to attend, and there is much less of a chance for trade jobs for folks in those neighborhoods.  No trade job placements, and no pipelines for other folks to enter the industry, which pipelines are one of the most used methods for hiring in most industries.

 

Why do I not directly discuss inner city violence?  Because crime and the violence it brings is typically a result of lack of legal options.  Because when there is too much time on your hands, and no positive and safe outlets exist, the willingness to find a way to pass time or make money through nefarious activity grows.  Because so long as young kids see hardworkers struggling to survive making less than AMI, while the drug dealers are balling and showing their wealth, the kids see the criminals as the examples of success, and as the criminals manipulate kids to do the dirty work, they are quickly in the police system, and its subsequent consequences of getting arrested, losing rights, making it harder to get a job, to compound the dangers of living the criminal life, or just living in those neighborhoods themselves.  The key is to create a self-reliant neighborhood, and investment is key.  Add quality police and it is a great start to rebuild.  

[CV147]

15 minutes ago, Los_Aztecas said:

A lot to unpack here.

1) Majority of funding for education comes from local property taxes, so in many places there is not enough resources.

2) School vouchers as formulated are just a tax break for wealthier families who send their kids to private schools.

3) Our education system is broken, but to really fix it would require more money, smaller classes, specialized classes, increased tutoring, more familial support ect. Not less money and more accountability.

 

1 is false. The majority of school funding comes from the state.

2 is false. School vouchers are popular in lower income communities.

https://fee.org/articles/the-strongest-support-for-school-vouchers-comes-from-lower-income-families/

3 is false. There is no positive correlation between spending per pupil and educational outcome. Also, I'd be willing to pay more money if there's more accountability and increased competition. As of right now, it's spending good money after bad.

[halfmanhalfbronco]

I have to say, this thread is going better than I thought it would, and I had high hopes for it.

Cheers guys.  Keep it going.

[soupslam1]

Poverty, drugs, lack of jobs, and single parent households are driving crime in the inner cities. Solve those four problems and you will see a big improvement. 

[retrofade]

15 minutes ago, soupslam1 said:

Poverty, drugs, lack of jobs, and single parent households are driving crime in the inner cities. Solve those four problems and you will see a big improvement. 

[Guest #1Stunner]

Couple of thoughts, since the Topic was "Inner City Violence" (which includes inherent poverty, I think).

 

(1) Eliminate Racist Laws.   Redlining gone (I think), and we've seen more recent criminal justice reform.

(2) If all else fails, change of scenery.

People can frequently escape poverty and inner-city violence very rapidly, and experience upper mobility, but it often requires a change of scenery.   It's why you see immigrants currently fleeing central America to the United States.  The Mexican immigrant family has to basically become American, but they are willing to do so, because of the upside.

This approach has been the prescription for a millennia, and is basically the story of immigration to the United States.   See Irish, Italians, Polish, Mexicans, Central Americans, etc, etc etc 

 

If you are Joe Citizen, and you continue to live in the crime ghetto, and wait on government to fix it, it might never happen.  

[Los_Aztecas]

11 minutes ago, CV147 said:

1 is false. The majority of school funding comes from the state.

2 is false. School vouchers are popular in lower income communities.

https://fee.org/articles/the-strongest-support-for-school-vouchers-comes-from-lower-income-families/

3 is false. There is no positive correlation between spending per pupil and educational outcome. Also, I'd be willing to pay more money if there's more accountability and increased competition. As of right now, it's spending good money after bad.

1) SOME money comes from the state, some from federal. Local is generally half, depending on state.  Here is a link that will show you per student spending and how it correlates with poverty.

2) Yes, it is popular among people from a lower socioeconomic status. But does it work? https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2017/05/12/520111511/the-promise-and-peril-of-school-vouchers

3) Why do you think our education system is failing? My observations are

1. Kids at disparate learning levels being in one classroom. 
2. Lack of engagement from students and parents
3. Lack of resources (technological, class size, ect)

Most of these require resources to fix. Kids are passed along regardless of educational level until they reach middle/high school. By then, the ones that are behind are too far behind they will never be able to catch up. You can't force parents to be engaged, but you can invest more money in after school programs, tutoring, ect. The argument is because social learning is more important than the material and holding them behind creates more problems than it solves. I would tend to agree that there needs to be more accountability within the system, and I would be open to any change that improves education for children. However we definitely need to invest more money, not less, in education.

 

[SalinasSpartan]

34 minutes ago, soupslam1 said:

Poverty, drugs, lack of jobs, and single parent households are driving crime in the inner cities. Solve those four problems and you will see a big improvement. 

I believe the point of this thread was to propose solutions, not just point out obvious problems.

[soupslam1]

38 minutes ago, Los_Aztecas said:

1) SOME money comes from the state, some from federal. Local is generally half, depending on state.  Here is a link that will show you per student spending and how it correlates with poverty.

2) Yes, it is popular among people from a lower socioeconomic status. But does it work? https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2017/05/12/520111511/the-promise-and-peril-of-school-vouchers

3) Why do you think our education system is failing? My observations are

1. Kids at disparate learning levels being in one classroom. 
2. Lack of engagement from students and parents
3. Lack of resources (technological, class size, ect)

Most of these require resources to fix. Kids are passed along regardless of educational level until they reach middle/high school. By then, the ones that are behind are too far behind they will never be able to catch up. You can't force parents to be engaged, but you can invest more money in after school programs, tutoring, ect. The argument is because social learning is more important than the material and holding them behind creates more problems than it solves. I would tend to agree that there needs to be more accountability within the system, and I would be open to any change that improves education for children. However we definitely need to invest more money, not less, in education.

 

I agree on education. It’s a big key to escaping poverty. You can improve schools and make them safer, but how do you deal with the cultural problems black kids face when they leave school? If you don’t deal with those problems it makes it a lot more difficult for education to  succeed. 

Parents need to take a bigger role in promoting education at home. Just about every successful black person interviewed will tell you their parent(s) reinforced the need to do well in school. They need to keep their kids out of gangs. Once they join a gang education is history. 

There are a lot of Asians that come to the US with the shirt on their back. The reason they succeed is they stress education to their kids.  
 

 

[sean327]

57 minutes ago, #1Stunner said:

Couple of thoughts, since the Topic was "Inner City Violence" (which includes inherent poverty, I think).

 

(1) Eliminate Racist Laws.   Redlining gone (I think), and we've seen more recent criminal justice reform.

(2) If all else fails, change of scenery.

People can frequently escape poverty and inner-city violence very rapidly, and experience upper mobility, but it often requires a change of scenery.   It's why you see immigrants currently fleeing central America to the United States.  The Mexican immigrant family has to basically become American, but they are willing to do so, because of the upside.

This approach has been the prescription for a millennia, and is basically the story of immigration to the United States.   See Irish, Italians, Polish, Mexicans, Central Americans, etc, etc etc 

 

If you are Joe Citizen, and you continue to live in the crime ghetto, and wait on government to fix it, it might never happen.  

You can’t correlate Latino immigration with Black inner city issues. It’s an apples and oranges argument. Latino immigrants don’t have to deal with a history of family destruction or laws meant to keep them in their place. Latinos face racism, but it’s not the same deep seated racism African Americans face. Latinos also don’t usually have to deal with being labeled sell outs when they climb the ladder. The issues may look similar on the outside for both groups, but dig a little deeper and you find real structural differences that allows one more success than the other. This is just my take, and some my think I’m full of shit, but it’s just my observation.

[Akkula]

3 hours ago, Bob said:

If I lived in the inner city I'd start by moving the +++++ out of there. I'd probably go to a small town in the upper Midwest somewhere where it's safe and decent. Bottom line, I'd get out of whatever Democrat-controlled hellscape I lived.

Leave crackville for methville?

[SDSUfan]

Quote

That culture laid out the script we all were supposed to follow:

• Get married before you have children and strive to stay married for their sake.
• Get the education you need for gainful employment, work hard, and avoid idleness.
• Go the extra mile for your employer or client.
• Be a patriot, ready to serve the country.
• Be neighborly, civic-minded, and charitable.
• Avoid coarse language in public.
• Be respectful of authority.
• Eschew substance abuse and crime.

Pretty decent road map.

https://www.inquirer.com/philly/opinion/commentary/paying-the-price-for-breakdown-of-the-countrys-bourgeois-culture-20170809.html

[Akkula]

Stop ghettoizing the poor into communities with shitty schools,  no opportunity,  drugs,  gangs,  guns,  poverty.  Pretty easy!

[Guest #1Stunner]

38 minutes ago, sean327 said:

You can’t correlate Latino immigration with Black inner city issues.

It’s an apples and oranges argument. Latino immigrants don’t have to deal with a history of family destruction or laws meant to keep them in their place. Latinos face racism, but it’s not the same deep seated racism African Americans face. Latinos also don’t usually have to deal with being labeled sell outs when they climb the ladder. The issues may look similar on the outside for both groups, but dig a little deeper and you find real structural differences that allows one more success than the other. This is just my take, and some my think I’m full of shit, but it’s just my observation.

I didn't correlate the two.

I simply provided a prescription on how to escape violence (the topic of the thread), and how to escape poverty (I added poverty to the discussion in my post).  I gave Latino immigrants as an example of people willing to move to a new place (a brave decision!).

Yes, people might be in a crime situation because of long-standing, underlying racism----but my prescription on how to QUICKLY escape the violence and poverty has nothing to do with understanding or acknowledging the cause of the crime and poverty, and is simply a pragmatic solution on how to escape it.

 

So, if a white, brown, black or whoever person is finding themselves crushed by violence and poverty in say Albuquerque (the topic is crime), and that this is a function of racism in the area and/or terrible laws or government, then my advice is to move to a new place, preferably a new State.  I get that abandoning a culture, community, and family is a big sacrifice, but the upsides are greater.  And people make this sacrifice all the time.  Move to somewhere with better economic opportunity, less crime, and less racism.  The end.

[Guest #1Stunner]

9 minutes ago, Akkula said:

Stop ghettoizing the poor into communities with shitty schools,  no opportunity,  drugs,  gangs,  guns,  poverty.  Pretty easy!

Why would people choose to remain in such a place.   Why wait decades for government to try and affect and change this?!?!   Life is too short!!!!

Time to move to a new place (you took that very approach on this when you felt the United States was a failed country, and left).

[renoskier]

3 hours ago, pokerider said:

I posted this previously.  An organization that focuses on schools to graduate blacks in the inner cities at higher rates,  to assist blacks to go to school or learn a trade, that helps black families and provide community support of fatherless families, that works with gov't including police to bring down gang violence and murders in inner cities.  Can also work with federal gov't and corporations on things like interns and training and scholarships.  
This would be at a community level, they would have to go basically house to house talk to the mothers and those who would be willing to listen.  Increase the avenues for success and show people what those avenues are, thats a general statement but those avenues have to help pave ways for kids to become better educated and learn skills. It can start at the teenager level with apprenticeships and training programs that can be co-sponsored by gov't and corporations.  The gang thing has to be shown to be a dead end which is what it pretty much amounts to.  

For many who are arrested and have prison sentences, non-violent offenders should be able to have their records expunged at least to some degree.  The cops should be part of the community, and in many communities they are.  They don't want kids getting into trouble and they don't want to fight them either.  But gov't and police should be able to work with group leaders, including churches and others to have a better goal of giving kids a better chance of success.  Its not tell kids or make them do something its to show them a better way.  
 

Fortunately, a program like you mention already exist and has since 1965, it's called Head Start. The infrastructure is already in place, maybe it just needs to be expanded, and funded, to include older children.

It's surprising that you would suggest a possible "solution" that will obviously be expensive for the taxpayers.

[Guest #1Stunner]

28 minutes ago, SDSUfan said:

Pretty decent road map.

https://www.inquirer.com/philly/opinion/commentary/paying-the-price-for-breakdown-of-the-countrys-bourgeois-culture-20170809.html

Who instills these values in people, because the Schools are unable to do it.

We had all hoped that Bill Cosby would do it, but even he has failed us. 

[Akkula]

9 minutes ago, #1Stunner said:

Why would people choose to remain in such a place.   Why wait decades for government to try and affect and change this?!?!   Life is too short!!!!

Time to move to a new place (you took that very approach on this when you felt the United States was a failed country, and left).

That is where the government housing is.....  what... do they go live in the suburbs in a tent by your house and you will give then a job working on your garden?

[East Coast Aztec]

35 minutes ago, SDSUfan said:

Pretty decent road map.

https://www.inquirer.com/philly/opinion/commentary/paying-the-price-for-breakdown-of-the-countrys-bourgeois-culture-20170809.html

It helps individually, but doesn't really speak to how inner-city violence can be curbed.  You do all of that, and you probably move out of that area, the inner city violence changes none.  

[Guest #1Stunner]

30 minutes ago, Akkula said:

That is where the government housing is.....  what... do they go live in the suburbs in a tent by your house and you will give then a job working on your garden?

You mean rent an apartment?  No problem with that.

No shame in finding a landscaping job.  I did that job for a few years.