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halfmanhalfbronco

Ok, so let's have a meaningful talk about inner city violence.

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1 minute ago, pokerider said:

only a fking moron would say the police are the problem for black on black crime.  geezez dude wtf 
 

The “justice” system has led to higher rates of poverty and broken homes in black communities with inequitable administration of charges, convictions, and sentencing. That is indisputable. 

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1 minute ago, happycamper said:

military service with a concurrent civilian option. 

Man, I don’t agree with that. Incentivize service but don’t make it mandatory. Or am I misinterpreting what you’re saying?

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1 minute ago, happycamper said:

didn't go you on a rant of broken homes?

Sorry, that's the fault of the criminals who spent time in prison and then had a permanent criminal record when they got out which made it even more difficult to "bootstrap" themselves up like the conservobots want them to do. If they didn't want to have to deal with that, they shouldn't have been driving while black on their way back from buying an oz of pot. 

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I posted this previously.  An organization that focuses on schools to graduate blacks in the inner cities at higher rates,  to assist blacks to go to school or learn a trade, that helps black families and provide community support of fatherless families, that works with gov't including police to bring down gang violence and murders in inner cities.  Can also work with federal gov't and corporations on things like interns and training and scholarships.  
This would be at a community level, they would have to go basically house to house talk to the mothers and those who would be willing to listen.  Increase the avenues for success and show people what those avenues are, thats a general statement but those avenues have to help pave ways for kids to become better educated and learn skills. It can start at the teenager level with apprenticeships and training programs that can be co-sponsored by gov't and corporations.  The gang thing has to be shown to be a dead end which is what it pretty much amounts to.  

For many who are arrested and have prison sentences, non-violent offenders should be able to have their records expunged at least to some degree.  The cops should be part of the community, and in many communities they are.  They don't want kids getting into trouble and they don't want to fight them either.  But gov't and police should be able to work with group leaders, including churches and others to have a better goal of giving kids a better chance of success.  Its not tell kids or make them do something its to show them a better way.  
 

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36 minutes ago, BSUTOP25 said:

I’m open to anything that brings the numbers down and improves things. But can we agree that you can’t call out one and ignore the other?

The numbers have been improving incrementally since the 1990s, though crime rates in the poorest neighborhoods remain significantly higher than the national average, for certain. But like I said, not every inner city is the worst neighborhoods of South Chicago. To your point, though, yes they are related issues. And they are both part of a broader discussion on race in America. Ultimately, solutions to one problem will inevitably affect the other.

However, in an argument I don't think you have to say "Police brutality is a problem" and immediately add "but inner city violence is a problem, too." The inference from many (not you) seems to be that you shouldn't care about the former until you fix the latter. It's a mechanism to undermine the argument. I think you can be fully accepting of both issues, while focusing on one at any given moment.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Los_Aztecas said:

Like I said previously, violence is a symptom of the real disease, generational poverty. We need to make extensive investments in these communities to improve a whole generations standard of living before there would be extensive change in violence. Although, ending the war on drugs should have a direct impact on lessening violence in these communities.

Good post. But added this for additional context.

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A lot of folks talk about funding for education, but there's no accountability. I think vouchers are the answer. Make public schools compete for the money and I believe we'll see a difference.

Right now, it's public education raising taxes to raise teachers' incomes so they don't leave for the neighboring district who's raising taxes to raise teachers' incomes. It's a race to the top, and yet education quality has stagnated. Yes I understand that teachers are underpaid. Then again, number one they knew they'd be underpaid when they were going for the degree, and number two, in many of these areas teachers are still paid higher than the average income level, and with benefits, and with pensions.

Public education is broken. It's a prime example of how socialism dis-incentivizes innovation. So I'm not all about just forking over more money into a broken system with no accountability or competition.

That's just my thoughts on education. The drug war absolutely has to end. It disproportionately targets people of color. It broke the nuclear family structure that some harp on.

I would encourage investment through business incubation centers. Lower-rent facilities where entrepreneurs can launch their business. I would find corporate sponsors to fund its creation and let them take the PR gain from success stories.

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The sad part is that it even when communities improve, the stigma, which can have real word consequences, still remains. Case and point, I grew up in Seaside, CA, which historically had a large black population that has gradually declined as the Latino population has increased. Back in the 80s to early 90s Seaside had a very real violent crime problem; but now it has a lower violent crime rate then neighboring Monterey, which is very white and very rich. Safer Seaside allocates around 42% of the city’s budget to the police, while more violent Monterey allocates 23%. I can’t help but feel the high crime stigma associated with Seaside is the justification for allocating such a higher amount of its budget to the police. Monterey’s public schools aren’t amazing, but they noticeably outperform Seaside’s, despite being in the same school district; I don’t think it’s crazy to think Seaside could help close that educational gap if it reduced that police budget and reinvested it in to the community.

But of course, the police union would never allow that. 

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16 minutes ago, BSUTOP25 said:

Man, I don’t agree with that. Incentivize service but don’t make it mandatory. Or am I misinterpreting what you’re saying?

Mandatory for a limited about of time. Say... 10 years. It isn't for the military and it isn't for the programs themselves though if they are designed well enough they may do some good. The point would be for a general mixing and a hands on type education. Meet people not in your bubble. Live not in your bubble. Learn how to do something, whether it is roofing or running a spreadsheet. 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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3 minutes ago, NVGiant said:

The numbers have been improving incrementally since the 1990s, though crime rates in the poorest neighborhoods remain significantly higher than the national average, for certain. But like I said, not every inner city is the worst neighborhoods of South Chicago. To your point, though, yes they are related issues. And they are both part of a broader discussion on race in America. Ultimately, solutions to one problem will inevitably and affect the other.

However, in an argument I don't think you have to say "Police brutality is a problem" and immediately add "but inner city violence is a problem, too." The inference from many (not you) seems to be that you shouldn't care about the former until you fix the latter. It's a mechanism to undermine the argument. I think you can be fully accepting of both issues, while focusing on one at any given moment.

 

 

I will politely disagree and suggest these can happen in tandem. The government obviously needs reform and to root out racists from the justice system while increasing funding and resources to improve African American communities. But goddamn it, the African American community can also step up to help curb violence with community watch programs, youth programs, volunteer programs, investing more in their own communities, etc. I’m also going to call out Black celebrities, particularly rap artists that glorify street behavior, for not doing more to step up as role models for youth. It’s going to take all of us to improve the situation — it will require investment, patience, and diligence. But we cannot ignore that black on black violence is a problem and we can’t just blame it on white people alone. Period. 

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2 minutes ago, happycamper said:

Mandatory for a limited about of time. Say... 10 years. It isn't for the military and it isn't for the programs themselves though if they are designed well enough they may do some good. The point would be for a general mixing and a hands on type education. Meet people not in your bubble. Live not in your bubble. Learn how to do something, whether it is roofing or running a spreadsheet. 

I don’t know man. What is the punishment for non-compliance?

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1 minute ago, CV147 said:

A lot of folks talk about funding for education, but there's no accountability. I think vouchers are the answer. Make public schools compete for the money and I believe we'll see a difference.

Right now, it's public education raising taxes to raise teachers' incomes so they don't leave for the neighboring district who's raising taxes to raise teachers' incomes. It's a race to the top, and yet education quality has stagnated. Yes I understand that teachers are underpaid. Then again, number one they knew they'd be underpaid when they were going for the degree, and number two, in many of these areas teachers are still paid higher than the average income level, and with benefits, and with pensions.

Public education is broken. It's a prime example of how socialism dis-incentivizes innovation. So I'm not all about just forking over more money into a broken system with no accountability or competition.

That's just my thoughts on education. The drug war absolutely has to end. It disproportionately targets people of color. It broke the nuclear family structure that some harp on.

I would encourage investment through business incubation centers. Lower-rent facilities where entrepreneurs can launch their business. I would find corporate sponsors to fund its creation and take the PR gain from success stories.

A lot to unpack here.

1) Majority of funding for education comes from local property taxes, so in many places there is not enough resources.

2) School vouchers as formulated are just a tax break for wealthier families who send their kids to private schools.

3) Our education system is broken, but to really fix it would require more money, smaller classes, specialized classes, increased tutoring, more familial support ect. Not less money and more accountability.

 

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28 minutes ago, Los_Aztecas said:

Like I said previously, violence is a symptom of the real disease, poverty. We need to make extensive investments in these communities to improve a whole generations standard of living before there would be extensive change in violence. Although, ending the war on drugs should have a direct impact on lessening violence in these communities.

This is so easy to write, but so hard to do.  Who is going to invest in these communities?  What does it look like.  Another community center is not going to do anything.  Businesses avoid them because of the crime and getting your merchandise fleeced.  There needs to be a culture shift, not just more money.  An increase in civility would be a start.  Stay in school.  Respect your teachers.  Don't have kids while you are a kid.  Fathers that are fathers. Etc.  Racism might have created the situation.  It is not necessarily what maintains the situation.

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1 hour ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Since inner city violence and black on black crime is a topic that now seems tied on this board to the BLM movement.  How do we fix it?  No "boot straps" logic.  Go.

It's poverty (lack of jobs) and historical expectations that black market is best/only chance for success. 

https://www.usatoday.com/picture-gallery/travel/experience/america/2018/10/17/25-most-dangerous-cities-america/1669467002/

St. Louis, KC, and Little Rock all being in the top 6 tells the story. 

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, BSUTOP25 said:

I don’t know man. What is the punishment for non-compliance?

you have to wait til 21 to drink and smoke weed. everyone else gets to at the conclusion of their stint

(literally the only thing that wasn't "nothing" and "draconian" that I could come up with in the last 3 minutes)

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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5 hours ago, BSUTOP25 said:

I will politely disagree and suggest these can happen in tandem. The government obviously needs reform and to root out racists from the justice system while increasing funding and resources to improve African American communities. But goddamn it, the African American community can also step up to help curb violence with community watch programs, youth programs, volunteer programs, investing more in their own communities, etc. I’m also going to call out Black celebrities, particularly rap artists that glorify street behavior, for not doing more to step up as role models for youth. It’s going to take all of us to improve the situation — it will require investment, patience, and diligence. But we cannot ignore that black on black violence is a problem and we can’t just blame it on white people alone. Period. 

This already happens in significant numbers. But the problem and its solutions are far more complicated than just communities getting involved. And no, it's not white people alone. I know few people who think that. But if we can't accept the issues caused by systematic racism, then we ignore the root problems for issues that can't be solved with just a few waves of the wand. If we ignore that black men receive harsher sentencing for the same crimes, for instance, and we focus just on father-less homes, we ignore the root causes, etc., etc.

Again. I think we can have all these arguments in tandem. I just don't think one is obligated to constantly argue it in tandem. As if we shouldn't talk about police brutality unless inner city crime is solved. 

 

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1 minute ago, happycamper said:

you have to wait til 21 to drink and smoke weed. everyone else gets to at the conclusion of their stint

(literally the only thing that wasn't "nothing" and "draconian" that I could come up with in the last 3 minutes)

Okay, fair enough. Lol

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2 minutes ago, AztecSU said:

It's poverty (lack of jobs) and historical expectations that black market is best/only chance for success. 

https://www.usatoday.com/picture-gallery/travel/experience/america/2018/10/17/25-most-dangerous-cities-america/1669467002/

St. Louis, KC, and Little Rock all being in the top 6 tells the story. 

Additionally the long term damage to family wealth due to redlining has to be examined. You can't expect people to break free of a community and culture they literally were forced to live in until more recently. Perhaps govt programs to assist those trying to move with home loans may play a role...this is something that needs a long term fix just like it took awhile to build the issue up. 

 

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, NVGiant said:

This already happens in significant numbers. But the problem and its solutions are far more complicated than just communities getting involved. And no, it's not white people alone. I know few people who think that. But if we can't accept the issues caused by systematic racism, then we ignore the root problems for issues that can't be solved with just a few waves of the want. If we ignore that black men receive harsher sentencing for the same crimes, for instance, and we focus just on father-less homes, we ignore the root causes, etc., etc.

Again. I think we can have all these arguments in tandem. I just don't think one is obligated to constantly argue it in tandem. As if we shouldn't talk about police brutality unless inner city crime is solved. 

 

Maybe it is happening, I just don’t see it broadcast in the day to day narrative. 

In any case, where you and I do agree is we both want to see less African Americans ending up in jail or the morgue. You and I both want African Americans to live alongside of us as equals in peace and prosperity, as our neighbors and friends or family. 

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