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sactowndog

Statues

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51 minutes ago, sactowndog said:

The equivalent would be putting one up next to the 9/11 monument.  Would that just offend you and be your responsibility to deal with?  Or would you oppose it?

If on private property, I would be offended, but I prefer liberty and freedom.

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28 minutes ago, modestobulldog said:

I am opposed to maintaining the message, in fact the opposite.  I prefer education and reconciliation / redemption. Hiding the subject in the back corner of a museum where few people go is similar to white-wash.  Out of sight, out of mind.  I think it is better to keep front and center.  We should rejoice the long journey of accomplishments, engage in dialogue where we need to go, address root (not superficial) issues, and hold all sides accountable, snuff out this perpetual blame / scapegoat mentality.  The current actions is really just a fan dance to arouse without confronting the stark naked problems that need be addressed.

No keeping the statue there absolutely continues the message.  Those spots were not chosen at random.  There is as much symbolism where the statues are placed as in the statues themselves.   You can’t logically say you are opposed to the message while wanting to keep them in their current location.  The location is the message!!!

In addition, there is no ability to put the context around it as is done in Memento Park in Hungary.  No place for a theater.  No place for a bookstore on the history.   At best you could do a small plaque which would by symbolic in itself.   Here you have this large confederate statue with a small plaque proclaiming I’m not racist.  By the way Memento Park is one of the most visited places in Hungary.   

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36 minutes ago, modestobulldog said:

If on private property, I would be offended, but I prefer liberty and freedom.

Yeah right, your side vociferously protested a peaceful mosque near the 9-11 memorial.  I don’t remember you saying shit.   You might want to take a hard look at the contradictions in what you claim as your beliefs.  
 

https://www.theawl.com/2015/10/the-sad-true-story-of-the-ground-zero-mosque/

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1 minute ago, sactowndog said:

No keeping the statue there absolutely continues the message.  Those spots were not chosen at random.  There is as much symbolism where the statues are placed as in the statues themselves.   You can’t logically say you are opposed to the message while wanting to keep them in their current location.  The location is the message!!!

In addition, there is no ability to put the context around it as is done in Memento Park in Hungary.  No place for a theater.  No place for a bookstore on the history.   At best you could do a small plaque which would by symbolic in itself.   Here you have this large confederate statue with a small plaque proclaiming I’m not racist.  By the way Memento Park is one of the most visited places in Hungary.   

We will have to disagree, it's your way or the highway.  I prefer civil discourse, wrestling with the issue and if a community agrees on relocation, I am fine with it.  I also think there could be some solutions that remind us of our past.  If there is a lone statue in front of a courthouse, I agree should probably be relocated, but not to the back corner of a museum.  

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1 minute ago, sactowndog said:

Yeah right, your side vociferously protested a peaceful mosque near the 9-11 memorial.  I don’t remember you saying shit.   You might want to take a hard look at the contradictions in what you claim as your beliefs.  
 

https://www.theawl.com/2015/10/the-sad-true-story-of-the-ground-zero-mosque/

I'm not interested in message board litigation of endless my side / your side examples.

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16 minutes ago, modestobulldog said:

We will have to disagree, it's your way or the highway.  I prefer civil discourse, wrestling with the issue and if a community agrees on relocation, I am fine with it.  I also think there could be some solutions that remind us of our past.  If there is a lone statue in front of a courthouse, I agree should probably be relocated, but not to the back corner of a museum.  

Where did I say the back corner of a museum?  Do you know anything about Memento Park?  Perhaps you should read one of the many links I posted about it.  And you are correct I am absolutely opposed to keeping those statues in places like a courthouse and you just as stubbornly refuse to acknowledge why....

By the way if we waited for community agreement some places would still have Jim Crow laws...   at what point does what is right over ride what some back assed redneck community thinks?? 

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4 minutes ago, sactowndog said:

Where did I say the back corner of a museum?  Do you know anything about Memento Park?  Perhaps you should read one of the many links I posted about it.  And you are correct I am absolutely opposed to keeping those statues in places like a courthouse and you just as stubbornly refuse to acknowledge why....

By the way if we waited for community agreement some places would still have Jim Crow laws...   at what point does what is right over ride what some back assed redneck community thinks?? 

It starts with education, that is what will change hearts and minds.  

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16 hours ago, sactowndog said:

I’m all for bringing down statues of Confederate Traitors put up in the south to terrorize blacks and institute Jim Crow laws.   I’m opposed to pulling down statues of Washington; Lincoln, Jefferson etc.   

I am split on Andrew Jackson.   Jackson strove to bring power to the people and battled corruption.  Setting the US on a good path.  He was also responsible for the trail of tears.  The trail of tears was among the worst moments of American history.  

Thoughts?

Can't erase the history of the US as it's got good and bad 

But you're right on the confederate statues - these weren't put up right after the south's failed treason, they were put up years after as a tool of oppression & as a FU to the rest of the USA

I'm fine with removing confederate statues but not really with removing other statues just because someone from another era did something that offends people in 2020 - If that's the case, then we might as well just erase humanities entire history & start anew in 2020 

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1 minute ago, UNLV2001 said:

Can't erase the history of the US as it's got good and bad 

But you're right on the confederate statues - these weren't put up right after the south's failed treason, they were put up year after as a tool of oppression & as a FU to the rest of the USA

I'm fine with removing confederate statues but not really with removing other statues just because someone from another era did something that offends people in 2020 - If that's the case, then we might as well just erase humanities entire history & start anew in 2020 

That in itself is an educational moment.  I agree with parts of your post and I think I understand the other part.

I think it would be good to point out the community sins of idolizing someone on a statue.  Add in the suffering, the person's contribution to the suffering.  Did they repent? Have a change of heart, reject in whole or in part?  Give credit where credit is due.  If a person made significant progress, give them credit.  Just spitballin, but it would be awesome if statues and memorials were created along side to show the stark contrast of actual suffering vs glorification of some of these people.  

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22 minutes ago, modestobulldog said:

It starts with education, that is what will change hearts and minds.  

Fine so we agree on that point.   

A statue with a small plaque in the square isn’t going to educate anyone.   The only education from that is the system hasn’t changed.   

What would educate?  A park, like Stone Mountain, filled with statues and guided tours of those statues, who created them and why.  Where they were placed previously and why.   A park which included a museum with images of lynchings and movies about the rise and impact of Jim Crow laws.  A park that became a major tourist attraction near a major city.  That would educate people. 

Why am I so definitive in my statements.  Because I have been to such a park.  It was the highlight of our trip to Budapest and one neither my wife or I will forget.   Nor will we forget what we learned and how they local communists kept control and oppressed the people.   

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2 minutes ago, modestobulldog said:

That in itself is an educational moment.  I agree with parts of your post and I think I understand the other part.

I think it would be good to point out the community sins of idolizing someone on a statue.  Add in the suffering, the person's contribution to the suffering.  Did they repent? Have a change of heart, reject in whole or in part?  Give credit where credit is due.  If a person made significant progress, give them credit.  Just spitballin, but it would be awesome if statues and memorials were created along side to show the stark contrast of actual suffering vs glorification of some of these people.  

I would be good with that pertaining to the statue of Jackson.  A statue/monument pertaining to the trail of tears in Lafayette park might be a good compromise.  

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2 hours ago, sactowndog said:

It is a reasonable opinion.  The problem is one thing shouldn’t define a man. 

Actually in the case of the Trail of Tears, yes that one thing should define a man. Jackson was a +++++. 

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4 minutes ago, sactowndog said:

Fine so we agree on that point.   

A statue with a small plaque in the square isn’t going to educate anyone.   The only education from that is the system hasn’t changed.   

What would educate?  A park, like Stone Mountain, filled with statues and guided tours of those statues, who created them and why.  Where they were placed previously and why.   A park which included a museum with images of lynchings and movies about the rise and impact of Jim Crow laws.  A park that became a major tourist attraction near a major city.  That would educate people. 

Why am I so definitive in my statements.  Because I have been to such a park.  It was the highlight of our trip to Budapest and one neither my wife or I will forget.   Nor will we forget what we learned and how they local communists kept control and oppressed the people.   

I posted seconds before this.  Not sure if it relates.  Anyway, I am on vacation and heading out.  Upper Midwest brews on tap take precedent. Best part, they are only $3-4. There will be a delay in my response.

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10 minutes ago, BSUTOP25 said:

Actually in the case of the Trail of Tears, yes that one thing should define a man. Jackson was a +++++. 

Like I said I’m torn.  I agree the trail of tears was horrific.....

perhaps the best solution for Jackson would be to fund and put a Trail of Tears monument in Lafayette Park right next to his statue.  That would actually define him.    

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It is a shame that the conversation has turned from police brutality and systemic racism to statues. Monuments to the confederacy should not be on public lands, but the other issues are much more important and pressing. 

I'm a desperate man
Send lawyers, guns, and money
The shit has hit the fan

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2 minutes ago, modestobulldog said:

That in itself is an educational moment.  I agree with parts of your post and I think I understand the other part.

I think it would be good to point out the community sins of idolizing someone on a statue.  Add in the suffering, the person's contribution to the suffering.  Did they repent? Have a change of heart, reject in whole or in part?  Give credit where credit is due.  If a person made significant progress, give them credit.  Just spitballin, but it would be awesome if statues and memorials were created along side to show the stark contrast of actual suffering vs glorification of some of these people.  

Think the difference is that statues are generally honorific gestures .............not sure confederate traitors need to be honored - fine in museums as it is history & their deeds can be seen in that historical light 

It's the public display of honoring those who took up arms against the US & the main underlying cause is the problem - At least where these Confederate statues are concerned 

With statues & monuments to the likes of founding fathers, Teddy Roosevelt et al.............I don't have a problem with those remaining, Those are historical figures that played major roles in the creation & formation of the USA.................there's few people of any ilk from 1700 to 1960 that could meet the standards of 2020 when looking at them from from a modern perspective 

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8 minutes ago, Mano said:

It is a shame that the conversation has turned from police brutality and systemic racism to statues. Monuments to the confederacy should not be on public lands, but the other issues are much more important and pressing. 

I think those statues in front of Southern Courthouses is part of systematic racism due to what it represents.  I thought removing them on this board was non controversial.   I apparently was wrong. 

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56 minutes ago, Mano said:

It is a shame that the conversation has turned from police brutality and systemic racism to statues. Monuments to the confederacy should not be on public lands, but the other issues are much more important and pressing. 

We’ve lost the plot here. Statues, the golden girls...

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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19 hours ago, sactowndog said:

I’m all for bringing down statues of Confederate Traitors put up in the south to terrorize blacks and institute Jim Crow laws.   I’m opposed to pulling down statues of Washington; Lincoln, Jefferson etc.   

I am split on Andrew Jackson.   Jackson strove to bring power to the people and battled corruption.  Setting the US on a good path.  He was also responsible for the trail of tears.  The trail of tears was among the worst moments of American history.  

Thoughts?

LOL-

You don't get a say.  The mob tells you what will and won't be destroyed.

A you people seriously this naive?  

JFC

https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/2020/07/05/frederick-douglass-statue-rochester-ny-removed-defaced-anniversary-july-4th-speech/5380432002/

 

 

On the same weekend in which famed abolitionist Frederick Douglass 168 years ago delivered one of his most historically resonant speeches, a statue of Douglass was toppled from its base and left near the Genesee River gorge.

Located in Maplewood Park, the statue "had been placed over the fence to the gorge and was leaning against the fence" on the river side, according to a statement from Rochester police. The statue was left about 50 feet from its pedestal.

The base and lower part of the statue was damaged, as was a finger on the statue's left hand.

There is historical significance to the timing of the vandalism — though no one can now say whether the timing was mere happenstance — just as there is historical significance to the statue's very location. The Maplewood Park location includes Kelsey's Landing, where Douglass, Harriet Tubman, and others helped shuttle slaves to safety along the Underground Railroad.

“Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.”

-Richard Feynman

"When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators."

-P.J. O’Rourke

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