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BSUTOP25

POLL: Should The Union Peacefully Dissolve?

Would it be better to dissolve the Union?  

30 members have voted

  1. 1. Would it be better to dissolve the Union?

    • Yes, let's slice this +++++er up and live the way we want to live
    • No, we are better as a whole through compromise and constitutional federalism


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45 minutes ago, bornontheblue said:

We have to start figuring out how to be more accepting of each other, and learn to live with each other or we will destroy ourselves and break apart whether we want to or not. 

It starts with you and me. And then everybody else, right? I think it starts by not delegitimizing and dismissing each other's points of views. We all bring different life experiences to the table, ones that inform our different points of views. If we started by making good-faith arguments to one another, accept that our idealogical opponent is making a good-faith argument, too, and embrace the idea that none of us are right all the time, I think that alone is a leap forward.

I succeed at times, and fail at others, in doing this, obviously. As do we all. But we're all on a board where we willingly engage with other people who have sometimes drastically different ideas of the world ... including ideas that we might find offensive. That's more than most people do. 

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If we get back to the 10th amendment and let federalism work....we would be fine.

It is very wrong that a president can make such a difference in our personal lives.   He has way too much power over things he shouldn't and congress has legislated away most of its power to govt.

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29 minutes ago, East Coast Aztec said:

It would take longer and cost more to split, than to actually act like adults and work together.  Plus I don't want the entire western coast to be beholden to SF, LA, Portland and Seattle opinion.  Diversity in thought comes from diversity in lifestyle and economy.  It works pretty well, just the howler monkeys on both extreme ends have folks thinking that it isn't.

This is an important point. Much of the screaming is done in a virtual world. How many of us get in ideological screaming matches face-to-face? I'm sure most of us have friends/family who are polar opposites politically, but we make it work in real life. I pity anyone who can't, really. 

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8 minutes ago, Jackrabbit said:

If we get back to the 10th amendment and let federalism work....we would be fine.

It is very wrong that a president can make such a difference in our personal lives.   He has way too much power over things he shouldn't and congress has legislated away most of its power to govt.

Solid post JR.

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14 minutes ago, NVGiant said:

It starts with you and me. And then everybody else, right? I think it starts by not delegitimizing and dismissing each other's points of views. We all bring different life experiences to the table, ones that inform our different points of views. If we started by making good-faith arguments to one another, accept that our idealogical opponent is making a good-faith argument, too, and embrace the idea that none of us are right all the time, I think that alone is a leap forward.

I succeed at times, and fail at others, in doing this, obviously. As do we all. But we're all on a board where we willingly engaging with other people who have sometimes drastically different ideas of the world ... including ideas that we might find offensive. That's more than most people do. 

Well that sounds great but what is the middle ground between white supremacy and racism versus none.  Some people think white supremacy is as integral to our heritage as apple pie and others say it is unamerican.  How do those two ideas co-exist without eradicating one or the other? 

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any separation would be like the partition of India and would make swaths of the country 3rd world economies. 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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4 minutes ago, Akkula said:

Well that sounds great but what is the middle ground between white supremacy and racism versus none.  Some people think white supremacy is as integral to our heritage as apple pie and others say it is unamerican.  How do those two ideas co-exist without eradicating one or the other? 

Other people say that White supremacy is not nearly as pervasive as you would like it to be, and it is purposely used to cause further division, and angst among us. 

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8 minutes ago, NVGiant said:

This is an important point. Much of the screaming is done in a virtual world. How many of us get in ideological screaming matches face-to-face? I'm sure most of us have friends/family who are polar opposites politically, but we make it work in real life. I pity anyone who can't, really. 

The MWCBoard OT Forum is a fantastic anonymous ecosystem that allows us to be assholes without the danger of losing friends or alienating family. :D 

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12 minutes ago, Akkula said:

Well that sounds great but what is the middle ground between white supremacy and racism versus none.  Some people think white supremacy is as integral to our heritage as apple pie and others say it is unamerican.  How do those two ideas co-exist without eradicating one or the other? 

You definitely aren't obligated to respect the views of extremists. But I don't believe most people are consciously guided by white supremacy. Some are, sure. But that is a minority opinion. So I can think many of those who argue against the idea of systematic racism are wrong without viewing them as white supremacists. And it's not like they're wrong when they say the fruit loops in Seattle right now are crazy. Just like they should be able to disagree with me and not think that I am some kind of radical. That maybe I, and others like me, have seen things with my own eyes that lead me to a very different point of view, and maybe that by listening they can learn something, too.

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3 minutes ago, NVGiant said:

You definitely aren't obligated to respect the views of extremists. But I don't believe most people are consciously guided by white supremacy. Some are, sure. But that is a minority opinion. So I can think many of those who argue against the idea of systematic racism are wrong without viewing them as white supremacists. And it's not like they're wrong when they say the fruit loops in Seattle right now are crazy. Just like they should be able to disagree with me and not think that I am some kind of radical. That maybe I, and others like me, have seen things with my own eyes that lead me to a very different point of view, and maybe that by listening they can learn something, too.

What percentage of people do you think are consciously thinking to themselves..."I am a white supremacist."  But somehow the machine goes on and on.  Denialism is the greatest form of white supremacy.  You can deny to yourself that it exists, deny you are a white supremacist, deny and say it is a thing of the past.  White supremacy thrives on that denial because denial means status quo...and status quo and lack of change means white supremacy.  

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2 minutes ago, Jackrabbit said:

We can talk about getting along and kumbaya all we want....it still a symptom.

The reason the 2 political sides are so divided....they are trying to divide up federal powers that shouldn't be there to start with.

Yes and no. In an almost entirely rural state like Wyoming, I admit this makes perfect sense. But this isn't just a fight over federalism. @Bob is right. This is a divide between rural and urban, and in states like Oregon, it is painfully obvious. 

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1 minute ago, Akkula said:

What percentage of people do you think are consciously thinking to themselves..."I am a white supremacist."  But somehow the machine goes on and on.  Denialism is the greatest form of white supremacy.  You can deny to yourself that it exists, deny you are a white supremacist, deny and say it is a thing of the past.  White supremacy thrives on that denial because denial means status quo...and status quo and lack of change means white supremacy.  

I don't know what percentage. And there is truth to what you say. That denying the existence of systematic racism can be a form of enabling white supremacy. But calling everyone who disagrees with us a racist doesn't get us anywhere either. I want to convince them, not dominate them. 

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So interesting... I’ve posed two questions the past couple weeks to gauge the pulse of our community on the state of the United States. The first asked if things had deteriorated so much that you are considering leaving for another country. Other than a couple people, seemed most were content with staying. The second was whether or not we should break up the Union and it appears as if nobody thinks that is a better path forward than what we have now. So, maybe when we all take a slow deep breath, we can see that the country might not be as bad as we hear day in and day out from the extremes. While we all see areas for improvement, not many want to leave and nobody wants to break it up. 

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2 minutes ago, BSUTOP25 said:

So interesting... I’ve posed two questions the past couple weeks to gauge the pulse of our community on the state of the United States. The first asked if things had deteriorated so much that you are considering leaving for another country. Other than a couple people, seemed most were content with staying. The second was whether or not we should break up the Union and it appears as if nobody thinks that is a better path forward than what we have now. So, maybe when we all take a slow deep breath, we can see that the country might not be as bad as we hear day in and day out from the extremes. While we all see areas for improvement, not many want to leave and nobody wants to break it up. 

Maybe you just suck at making good poll questions :thumbsup:

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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Just now, thelawlorfaithful said:

Maybe you just suck at making good poll questions :thumbsup:

@NVGiant — please lecture this fool 

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29 minutes ago, Jackrabbit said:

If we get back to the 10th amendment and let federalism work....we would be fine.

It is very wrong that a president can make such a difference in our personal lives.   He has way too much power over things he shouldn't and congress has legislated away most of its power to govt.

 

21 minutes ago, NVGiant said:

This is an important point. Much of the screaming is done in a virtual world. How many of us get in ideological screaming matches face-to-face? I'm sure most of us have friends/family who are polar opposites politically, but we make it work in real life. I pity anyone who can't, really. 

 

21 minutes ago, BSUTOP25 said:

Solid post JR.   Why?

 

As I'm reading this thread, I considered starting a new thread but will just try to jump in here.

Rural vs Urban divide: is it real? 

Why does our political map look the way it does? 

@Jackrabbit @bornontheblue and any other conservative voices jump in.

Please list 1 or 2 of your primary grievances which you feel have been thrust upon you/your community by liberal lawmakers.

Briefly explain how these laws, enacted in Washington, have negatively impacted your life.

 

 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Akkula said:

What percentage of people do you think are consciously thinking to themselves..."I am a white supremacist."  But somehow the machine goes on and on.  Denialism is the greatest form of white supremacy.  You can deny to yourself that it exists, deny you are a white supremacist, deny and say it is a thing of the past.  White supremacy thrives on that denial because denial means status quo...and status quo and lack of change means white supremacy.  

I don't deny that white supremacy exists. I do deny that it is pervasive throughout society. I make the assumption that most people are kind and good people. 

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