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Coog kev

Confederate Things Torn Down

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2 minutes ago, NevadaFan said:

He’s famous for finding something second. 

Well, probably far behind second depending on native migration patterns in the Caribbean before him. 

 

Maybe the second European to find the "New World" though.

On 12/1/2016 at 12:26 PM, WyomingCoog said:

I own a vehicle likely worth more than everything you own combined and just flew first class (including a ticket for a 2 1/2 year old), round trip to Las Vegas and I'm not 35 yet. When you accomplish something outside of finishing a book, let me know. When's the last time you saw a 2 year old fly first class in their own seat? Don't tell me about elite.  

28 minutes ago, NorCalCoug said:

I’d happily compare IQ’s with you any day of the week.

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5 hours ago, East Coast Aztec said:

I don't have a drive to eliminate Colombus, but I don't see the reason for American adulation of Colombus.  Didn't discover the land, didn't found America, and was a dick to the natives.  How is there a Colombus Day, and not a Vespucci Day or Plymouth Day?  

I think that being the first to make a dangerous journey that no one had made before (though they tried) is a more notable accomplishment than making a map (Vespucci). I, like you, have no drive to eliminate him from history books or topple his statues, nor do I have a particular affinity for him, but he does have a place in our history. There are statues of much worse people on U.S. soil that never raise an eyebrow, so I just chalk up this up to him being white....even though he wasn't. 

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17 minutes ago, Slapdad said:

I think that being the first to make a dangerous journey that no one had made before (though they tried) is a more notable accomplishment than making a map (Vespucci). I, like you, have no drive to eliminate him from history books or topple his statues, nor do I have a particular affinity for him, but he does have a place in our history. There are statues of much worse people on U.S. soil that never raise an eyebrow, so I just chalk up this up to him being white....even though he wasn't. 

Like who? 

Who has... 

Gave an enslaved Indian woman to his buddy Michele de Cuneo (and others) to be raped. According to Columbus, some as young as 9-10 were "in demand"

Cut someones nose and ears off and sold them to slavery 

Routinely cut people's hands off if they didn't meet tribute quotas

Roasted Indigenous Children on.. Spits. Among other horrible things, like bashing their brains on rocks and cutting off their legs according to De Las Casas

Cut a woman's tongue out for implying he was of low birth

Paraded dismembered native bodies through the town he was the governor of to serve as a warning?

 

I mean, there's some pretty bad guys out there but...

On 12/1/2016 at 12:26 PM, WyomingCoog said:

I own a vehicle likely worth more than everything you own combined and just flew first class (including a ticket for a 2 1/2 year old), round trip to Las Vegas and I'm not 35 yet. When you accomplish something outside of finishing a book, let me know. When's the last time you saw a 2 year old fly first class in their own seat? Don't tell me about elite.  

28 minutes ago, NorCalCoug said:

I’d happily compare IQ’s with you any day of the week.

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1 minute ago, Slapdad said:

I think that being the first to make a dangerous journey that no one had made before (though they tried) is a more notable accomplishment than making a map (Vespucci). I, like you, have no drive to eliminate him from history books or topple his statues, nor do I have a particular affinity for him, but he does have a place in our history. There are statues of much worse people on U.S. soil that never raise an eyebrow, so I just chalk up this up to him being white....even though he wasn't. 

Since when are people from Genoa not white?

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7 minutes ago, youngrebelfan40 said:

Like who? 

Who has... 

Gave an enslaved Indian woman to his buddy Michele de Cuneo to be raped

Cut someones nose and ears off and sold them to slavery 

Cut a woman's tongue out for implying he was of low birth

Paraded dismembered native bodies through the town he was the governor of to serve as a warning?

 

I mean, there's some pretty bad guys out there but...

King Kamehameha comes to mind. He is celebrated for the great "unification" that was carried out by a violent conqueror and murderer. 

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3 minutes ago, Slapdad said:

King Kamehameha comes to mind. He is celebrated for the great "unification" that was carried out by a violent conqueror and murderer. 

I added to the list. 

Kamehameha never did shit like that on a broad, systematic basis. Of which the net effect was genocide.

 

I mean, widescale kidnapping, raping, mutilating, and murdering children wasn't exactly Kamehameha's wheelhouse. It was a hallmark of the Columbus administration.

On 12/1/2016 at 12:26 PM, WyomingCoog said:

I own a vehicle likely worth more than everything you own combined and just flew first class (including a ticket for a 2 1/2 year old), round trip to Las Vegas and I'm not 35 yet. When you accomplish something outside of finishing a book, let me know. When's the last time you saw a 2 year old fly first class in their own seat? Don't tell me about elite.  

28 minutes ago, NorCalCoug said:

I’d happily compare IQ’s with you any day of the week.

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19 minutes ago, youngrebelfan40 said:

Like who? 

Who has... 

Gave an enslaved Indian woman to his buddy Michele de Cuneo to be raped

Cut someones nose and ears off and sold them to slavery 

Routinely cut people's hands off if they didn't meet tribute quotas

Roasted Indigenous Children on.. Spits. Among other horrible things, like bashing their brains on rocks and cutting off their legs

Cut a woman's tongue out for implying he was of low birth

Paraded dismembered native bodies through the town he was the governor of to serve as a warning?

 

I mean, there's some pretty bad guys out there but...

Dude, Juan De Oñate was a brutal bastard. He cut the feet and hands off of Native Americans in New Mexico. Acoma Pueblo SE of Grants New Mexico bore the brunt of his brutality. There are statues of him all over New Mexico, though many are starting to come down. My family came to New Mexico with him in 1598. That part is still a point of pride for me, but after learning the whole story about Oñate it’s kind of diminished.

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1 minute ago, sean327 said:

Dude, Juan De Oñate was a brutal bastard. He cut the feet and hands off of Native Americans in New Mexico. Acoma Pueblo SE of Grants New Mexico bore the brunt of his brutality. There are statues of him all over New Mexico, though many are starting to come down. My family came to New Mexico with him in 1598. That part is still a point of pride for me, but after learning the whole story about Oñate it’s kind of diminished.

He shouldn't have statues either. None of the conquistadors should.

 

Even Onate didn't commit crimes on the same scale and brutality as Columbus though. Columbus also made the mistake of being brutal to Spanairds, which is why he was recalled and imprisoned.

On 12/1/2016 at 12:26 PM, WyomingCoog said:

I own a vehicle likely worth more than everything you own combined and just flew first class (including a ticket for a 2 1/2 year old), round trip to Las Vegas and I'm not 35 yet. When you accomplish something outside of finishing a book, let me know. When's the last time you saw a 2 year old fly first class in their own seat? Don't tell me about elite.  

28 minutes ago, NorCalCoug said:

I’d happily compare IQ’s with you any day of the week.

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12 minutes ago, SalinasSpartan said:

Since when are people from Genoa not white?

Sorry....I posted without finishing my thought. He wasn't the the first to introduce slavery in the new world is what I should have said. There is certainly more disdain for white explorers and rulers who participated in slavery or even turned a blind eye to it than for those who did so to people with the same color of skin. 

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Just now, Slapdad said:

Sorry....I posted without finishing my thought. He wasn't the the first to introduce slavery in the new world is what I should have said. There is certainly more disdain for white explorers and rulers who participated in slavery or even turned a blind eye to it than for those who did so to people with the same color of skin. 

Slavery among Native American tribes was a fundamentally different institution than European-introduced chattel slavery.

There was less coercion, more mutability, less brutal labor patterns, and no inherited status. Also a lot less death and suicide.

On 12/1/2016 at 12:26 PM, WyomingCoog said:

I own a vehicle likely worth more than everything you own combined and just flew first class (including a ticket for a 2 1/2 year old), round trip to Las Vegas and I'm not 35 yet. When you accomplish something outside of finishing a book, let me know. When's the last time you saw a 2 year old fly first class in their own seat? Don't tell me about elite.  

28 minutes ago, NorCalCoug said:

I’d happily compare IQ’s with you any day of the week.

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7 minutes ago, sean327 said:

Dude, Juan De Oñate was a brutal bastard. He cut the feet and hands off of Native Americans in New Mexico. Acoma Pueblo south of Grants New Mexico bore the brunt of his brutality. There are statues of him all over New Mexico, though many are starting to come down. My family came to New Mexico with him in 1598. That part is still a point of pride for me, but after learning the whole story about Oñate it’s kind of diminished.

I think it is interesting to hear that.  To my knowledge, I don't have a ancestral history that will be deemed evil, even if it was an accepted practice back then, so I have no personal experience with this.  You don't have to answer, but if you do, what do you feel personally about those going down, and what needs to happen to keep the history intact?

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3 minutes ago, East Coast Aztec said:

I think it is interesting to hear that.  To my knowledge, I don't have a ancestral history that will be deemed evil, even if it was an accepted practice back then, so I have no personal experience with this.  You don't have to answer, but if you do, what do you feel personally about those going down, and what needs to happen to keep the history intact?

Taking the Oñate statues down won’t change the history of New Mexico. He’s already in the books as the founder of Spanish New Mexico. He’s also the first Governor. His place in New Mexico history is cemented. No need for statues that glorify him. Thankfully Oñate is nowhere in my family tree, but that doesn’t get my ancestors off the hook completely. I’m sure there were some who probably did some horrendous things to the Pueblo People.

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23 minutes ago, Slapdad said:

Sorry....I posted without finishing my thought. He wasn't the the first to introduce slavery in the new world is what I should have said. There is certainly more disdain for white explorers and rulers who participated in slavery or even turned a blind eye to it than for those who did so to people with the same color of skin. 

Did he invent slavery? Of course not. He just the first person to transport slaves across the Atlantic when he sent indigenous Americans back to Spain in 1494. No biggie. 

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12 minutes ago, sean327 said:

Taking the Oñate statues down won’t change the history of New Mexico. He’s already in the books as the founder of Spanish New Mexico. He’s also the first Governor. His place in New Mexico history is cemented. No need for statues that glorify him. Thankfully Oñate is nowhere in my family tree, but that doesn’t get my ancestors off the hook completely. I’m sure there were some who probably did some horrendous things to the Pueblo People.

Thanks, always good to hear someone's opinion when they have a (not directly related) familial history with some of this.

What you wrote is similar to some friends back in the south, and their family history of slaves or as confederate troops where they know the history, don't shy from it, but don't celebrate it.  I think it is why I know better than to condemn people for their families past as it doesn't mean that is who they are (unless they actually are).  We had a statue on UNC's campus that was rooted in a negative history from the moment it was installed until the day they tore it down, and a lot of conversations (many heated) was around it.  It was interesting to hear the conversation when it wasn't at its peak (I was graduated and gone by the time they tore it down at a protest) between students and residents alike and supporters of the statue.  Surprisingly, the supporters of the statue didn't include much of the families that were involved in putting it up.

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36 minutes ago, sean327 said:

Dude, Juan De Oñate was a brutal bastard. He cut the feet and hands off of Native Americans in New Mexico. Acoma Pueblo SE of Grants New Mexico bore the brunt of his brutality. There are statues of him all over New Mexico, though many are starting to come down. My family came to New Mexico with him in 1598. That part is still a point of pride for me, but after learning the whole story about Oñate it’s kind of diminished.

Yea being Latino is weird; on one hand your ancestors are indigenous people that were subjugated and Africans that were enslaved... and on the other hand your ancestors are people that did the subjugating and enslaving. My grandpa is from Albuquerque and I recently traced his lineage back a few hundred years to some of the conquistadors that conquered the area. Normally I get excited uncovering a new ancestor, but it’s weird when that ancestor (likely) did horrible shit.

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1 minute ago, SalinasSpartan said:

Yea being Latino is weird; on one hand your ancestors are indigenous people that were subjugated and Africans that were enslaved... and on the other hand your ancestors are people that did the subjugating and enslaving. My grandpa is from Albuquerque and I recently traced his lineage back a few hundred years to some of the conquistadors that conquered the area. Normally I get excited uncovering a new ancestor, but it’s weird when that ancestor (likely) did horrible shit.

Perfect way to explain it. Proud of the heritage and culture, yet you know there is some dirty shit lurking in the closet.

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13 minutes ago, sean327 said:

Perfect way to explain it. Proud of the heritage and culture, yet you know there is some dirty shit lurking in the closet.

This inspired me to go take another look on ancestry; looks like my ancestors (Bartoleme and Diego De Montoya) came over with Onaté in his second expedition. So we are probably like 12th cousins or something lol. 

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7 hours ago, East Coast Aztec said:

I don't have a drive to eliminate Colombus, but I don't see the reason for American adulation of Colombus.  Didn't discover the land, didn't found America, and was a dick to the natives.  How is there a Colombus Day, and not a Vespucci Day or Plymouth Day?  

It did take some big swinging balls to do what he did.  Columbus ushered in vast economic and social revolution.  I think we can both recognize the genocide and atrocities of European colonialism as well as the sins of Columbus himself and the rise of classical liberal governments and a whole host of revolutionary technology that lead to a higher standard of living, less death, hunger and violence for all of humanity.

 

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12 minutes ago, SalinasSpartan said:

This inspired me to go take another look on ancestry; looks like my ancestors (Bartoleme and Diego De Montoya) came over with Onaté in his second expedition. So we are probably like 12th cousins or something lol. 

You’re gonna shit, but both of them are in my family tree. My family is Castillo, Montoya, Perea, Gutierrez, and Bernal. I’ll try and take a picture of what I have found and post it later tonight. The New Mexico Hispanic Society has been a great resource for filling in a tree.

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1 hour ago, youngrebelfan40 said:

Slavery among Native American tribes was a fundamentally different institution than European-introduced chattel slavery.

There was less coercion, more mutability, less brutal labor patterns, and no inherited status. Also a lot less death and suicide.

From my understanding, it basically meant the slaves performed tasks considered tedious and boring.  Collecting firewood, packing up the animals and general camp work.  The 5 tribes (as well as most tribes) had been engaging in captive taking and forced involuntary labor for thousands of years  The Chickasaws were as brutal on their black slaves as any plantation owner and engaged in mutilation and death as forms of punishment.  Outside of that tribe however, it is my understanding a native owned black slave could expect to be treated along the cultural norms of captives.  Correct me if I am wrong.

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