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Coog kev

Confederate Things Torn Down

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3 minutes ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

I don’t know. I’d advocate learning about it outside of school too. But I’m a dork like that.

Sure. I don’t see how a statue of a guy with his name and a sentence about them helps people learn all that much but, you know, whatever. 

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Just now, retrofade said:

Why do we need monuments to Civil War leaders to "remember history" in your opinion? Nobody is advocating that history be forgotten, they're advocating for the removal of monuments to Civil War leaders... leaders who fought for the right for man to own another man. These statues and monuments were erected in the era of Jim Crow and the Civil Rights movement. Did the people who erected them want the memories of their desire to enslave others to live on? Why do you think that might be? 

Removing statues isn't forgetting history, it's getting rid of monuments to people who sought to perpetuate an evil system, and became traitors to this country in pursuit of that goal. 

I contend that taking down statues is one step to hiding our past. Why not put up new ones?   Do people fear these statues? The only thing it does is make a few of us feel better. rather than fix the issue.   Leaving them up and talking about them would show a healthy strength or our society.

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2 minutes ago, Jackrabbit said:

I contend that taking down statues is one step to hiding our past. Why not put up new ones?   Do people fear these statues? The only thing it does is make a few of us feel better. rather than fix the issue.   Leaving them up and talking about them would show a healthy strength or our society.

I know it's been mentioned here before, but have you weighed in on Banksy's proposal.

Replace the monuments with ones of people pulling them down? That commemorates your precious history of slavery with the events that led to their removal. 

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5 minutes ago, SalinasSpartan said:

Sure. I don’t see how a statue of a guy with his name and a sentence about them helps people learn all that much but, you know, whatever. 

That's because it doesn't. 

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32 minutes ago, Jackrabbit said:

Since when is heritage perfect.?..We need to be totally honest and admit that parts are ugly, keep it in plain view and learn from it.  I never said once that we are honoring or protecting anyone. Are the folks of the South our enemies?   Naming facilities after southern generals was being inclusive and helping to heal many wounds.

 

The Civil war commanders who waged war against the Union? Yeah, they were enemies of the United States.

I'm a desperate man
Send lawyers, guns, and money
The shit has hit the fan

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On 6/11/2020 at 5:58 PM, bsu_alum9 said:

If it makes you feel any better, Christopher Columbus was a genocidal maniac.

https://www.mesacc.edu/~thoqh49081/handouts/bartolome.html

Even by the standards of his time he was considered an insane, violent, psychopath. 

He was recalled from a governorship because of his brutal policies. 

On 12/1/2016 at 12:26 PM, WyomingCoog said:

I own a vehicle likely worth more than everything you own combined and just flew first class (including a ticket for a 2 1/2 year old), round trip to Las Vegas and I'm not 35 yet. When you accomplish something outside of finishing a book, let me know. When's the last time you saw a 2 year old fly first class in their own seat? Don't tell me about elite.  

28 minutes ago, NorCalCoug said:

I’d happily compare IQ’s with you any day of the week.

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10 minutes ago, retrofade said:

If they tried to secede and engaged in a war to that aim, they would be traitors as well. That said, your whataboutism in defense of the Confederacy is duly noted. 

It’s I like to talk a lot about it because I know a lot aboutism, thank you very much. That duly noted barb a while back must have chaffed your thin skin something awful though. Been dying to turn that one for awhile now, haven’t you. 

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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1 minute ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

It’s I like to talk a lot about it because I know a lot aboutism, thank you very much. That duly noted barb a while back must have chaffed your thin skin something awful though. Been dying to turn that one for awhile now, haven’t you. 

I legitimately have no clue what you're talking about. Care to clue me in?

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4 minutes ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

It’s I like to talk a lot about it because I know a lot aboutism, thank you very much. That duly noted barb a while back must have chaffed your thin skin something awful though. Been dying to turn that one for awhile now, haven’t you. 

I actually agree with you. The Confederate mission of creating a state based on the rape, murder, and torture of black people for financial gain is sort of emblematic of the entire American project. Throw in a little land theft and genocide and you have the base prerequisite for our entire nation's existence, 

On 12/1/2016 at 12:26 PM, WyomingCoog said:

I own a vehicle likely worth more than everything you own combined and just flew first class (including a ticket for a 2 1/2 year old), round trip to Las Vegas and I'm not 35 yet. When you accomplish something outside of finishing a book, let me know. When's the last time you saw a 2 year old fly first class in their own seat? Don't tell me about elite.  

28 minutes ago, NorCalCoug said:

I’d happily compare IQ’s with you any day of the week.

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2 minutes ago, youngrebelfan40 said:

I actually agree with you. The Confederate mission of creating a state based on the rape, murder, and torture of black people for financial gain is sort of emblematic of the entire American project. Throw in a little land theft and genocide and you have the base prerequisite for our entire nation's existence, 

That’s not agreeing with me, but run with that. See how many of the “traitors and patriots” chorus wrapping themselves in the union flag will follow that pied piper.

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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@halfmanhalfbronco

 

This may be a little late but here are my thoughts on your question re the Confederacy and Native Americans.

 

The fate of Native Americans is rather difficult to predict if the Confederacy had won. We have to take as a given that Native American cultures in the West where the Confederacy would have expanded would be exterminated in a similar fashion as what happened under the US. But what is a more difficult thing to guess at is how the Choctaw, Creek, Cherokee, etc. would have been treated. These "five civilized" tribes owned black slaves and thus many of them actively were invested in a Confederate victory. One one hand, their participation in a successful war effort may have solidified their place as honorary whites. They may have found common ground with the white slaveowning elites on the basis of enslavement and thus have been assimilated into the dominant culture.

On the other hand, once victorious the Confederates may have just continued to practice the Jacksonian ethic of continent-spanning white slaveowning colonialism and persecuted them regardless. Keep in mind that by the 1850s white was almost a completely solid social category in American society. The inclusion of "others" into the benefit of whiteness, especially Native Americans, may have been a hurdle too high for the mass of white southerners. This would especially be true for the large, "middle class" of slaveowners, who were the primary backers of war because their personal financial ambitions were tied up in expansion of slavery and slave-tilled land. If Jefferson Davis ended up giving up power as planned, and the Confederacy turned into a truly Jacksonian state where "all" white men were supreme, then I have no doubt that they would have turned on the "Civilized Tribes" as they did before, continuing their plunder in line with the ethic of their newly-created state. 

I tend to think that the latter would have occured.

 

 

On 12/1/2016 at 12:26 PM, WyomingCoog said:

I own a vehicle likely worth more than everything you own combined and just flew first class (including a ticket for a 2 1/2 year old), round trip to Las Vegas and I'm not 35 yet. When you accomplish something outside of finishing a book, let me know. When's the last time you saw a 2 year old fly first class in their own seat? Don't tell me about elite.  

28 minutes ago, NorCalCoug said:

I’d happily compare IQ’s with you any day of the week.

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11 minutes ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

That’s not agreeing with me, but run with that. See how many of the “traitors and patriots” chorus wrapping themselves in the union flag will follow that pied piper.

Really, the Republican line against slavery in the 1850s could be (and was) reasonably interpreted as a betrayal of American values. Southerners knew that their right to brutalize black people was an inherent part of their American "freedom" from the nation's founding. This is how many had always understood it. 

On 12/1/2016 at 12:26 PM, WyomingCoog said:

I own a vehicle likely worth more than everything you own combined and just flew first class (including a ticket for a 2 1/2 year old), round trip to Las Vegas and I'm not 35 yet. When you accomplish something outside of finishing a book, let me know. When's the last time you saw a 2 year old fly first class in their own seat? Don't tell me about elite.  

28 minutes ago, NorCalCoug said:

I’d happily compare IQ’s with you any day of the week.

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1 hour ago, youngrebelfan40 said:

Really, the Republican line against slavery in the 1850s could be (and was) reasonably interpreted as a betrayal of American values. Southerners knew that their right to brutalize black people was an inherent part of their American "freedom" from the nation's founding. This is how many had always understood it. 

That was certainly the story the radicals and fire eaters liked to tell. They kept telling it until everyone went right off the cliff after them, until everyone was starving with soldiers marching through their yards and their cities ablaze. They even kept repeating the story at the bottom of the ravine amidst the smoking ruins. But they clearly weren’t the only ones with ideas about American freedom and values.

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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The latest on this vast and wide topic.

The Mississippi Governor highly reluctant to get rid of its state flag by degree; it must endure a challenging voter's rights action with 2/3 majority of the Mississippi legislature agreeing to follow suit after voter's rights challenge and potential popular vote.  And there's that thing about Mississippi..'if you don't like the flag, leave'.

 

image.jpeg.1fd5a7f4b320419b89dde336a96e7e69.jpeg

 

The proposed New Flag of Mississippi c. Century 2021.

image.jpeg.0ef96521637f7f1563e822365dca06b4.jpeg

 

The Mississippi legislature.

How the Klan Got Its Hood | The New Republic 

 

My bad..re that black and white image.  Mississippi is the Magnolia State.  I should do this instead.

 

welcome signs for Mississippi | Mississippi Welcome To Mississippi ...      image.jpeg.85757f6fe2549763a3c14f894409d9f2.jpeg

150px-Coat_of_arms_of_the_University_of_Houston_System.png

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2 hours ago, youngrebelfan40 said:

@halfmanhalfbronco

 

This may be a little late but here are my thoughts on your question re the Confederacy and Native Americans.

 

The fate of Native Americans is rather difficult to predict if the Confederacy had won. We have to take as a given that Native American cultures in the West where the Confederacy would have expanded would be exterminated in a similar fashion as what happened under the US. But what is a more difficult thing to guess at is how the Choctaw, Creek, Cherokee, etc. would have been treated. These "five civilized" tribes owned black slaves and thus many of them actively were invested in a Confederate victory. One one hand, their participation in a successful war effort may have solidified their place as honorary whites. They may have found common ground with the white slaveowning elites on the basis of enslavement and thus have been assimilated into the dominant culture.

On the other hand, once victorious the Confederates may have just continued to practice the Jacksonian ethic of continent-spanning white slaveowning colonialism and persecuted them regardless. Keep in mind that by the 1850s white was almost a completely solid social category in American society. The inclusion of "others" into the benefit of whiteness, especially Native Americans, may have been a hurdle too high for the mass of white southerners. This would especially be true for the large, "middle class" of slaveowners, who were the primary backers of war because their personal financial ambitions were tied up in expansion of slavery and slave-tilled land. If Jefferson Davis ended up giving up power as planned, and the Confederacy turned into a truly Jacksonian state where "all" white men were supreme, then I have no doubt that they would have turned on the "Civilized Tribes" as they did before, continuing their plunder in line with the ethic of their newly-created state. 

I tend to think that the latter would have occured.

 

 

Glad to see we both agree.  @halfmanhalfbronco

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