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Coog kev

Confederate Things Torn Down

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1 minute ago, RamSack said:

George Washington and Thomas Jefferson owned slaves. Should we rename all schools, streets, and buildings named after them? Should we remove their faces from Mount Rushmore?

Did George Washington or Thomas Jefferson lead a secession from the United States in the name of continuing the ownership of people? I'll give you the answer... no, they did not. 

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4 minutes ago, DestinFlPackfan said:

Hmm, put confederate generals monuments in union cemeteries and union Generals monuments in confederate cemetaries. Plaques beneath monuments state ' this/these were the man/men responsible for the graves beneath' et al. 

Provocative and clever. 

Also, as a Native American I would like to get your opinion on something another Native friend of mine said.  He is of the opinion that while the Union is ultimately on the right side of History, the Confederacy winning would have been better for Native populations and Mexicans and even offered them permanent seats in congress. @youngrebelfan40 I would like your opinion on this as well as I am sure it is something you have way more knowledge than I do on and, being a white boy who never looked at this as well read as I am, it seemed out of place for me to argue.

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3 minutes ago, RamSack said:

George Washington and Thomas Jefferson owned slaves. Should we rename all schools, streets, and buildings named after them? Should we remove their faces from Mount Rushmore?

Did they ever take up arms against our country?

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4 minutes ago, RamSack said:

George Washington and Thomas Jefferson owned slaves. Should we rename all schools, streets, and buildings named after them? Should we remove their faces from Mount Rushmore?

Are you telling me that Washington and Jefferson were traitors to our country?

 

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16 minutes ago, retrofade said:

Meanwhile, the BB has a thread going where people are trying to claim that the Confederate Battle Flag isn't the flag of traitors, and that saying that the South committed treason is a liberal media lie. 

I don't know what BB is, but I've heard that story before.  That the confederate battle flag wasn't really the official flag of the confederacy.  That flying it isn't a celebration of the confederacy but rather a celebration of independence (a notion that I'd like if I thought for a minute that it was factual), and so on and so forth.  All revisionist BS.

As far as the south committing treason?  Welllll....they didn't try to overthrow the government, they tried to secede from it.  I wouldn't call that treason.  They were in the wrong, no question.  I don't believe that most southerners were actually in favor of secession either, but rather just opposed to losing certain rights and opportunities that were going to go away if they had to follow the countries leadership.  Mostly the right to own slaves.  They saw that (and were correct) as a huge economic blow.  From the confederate point of view they were going to set up their own country or make the north adopt their standards.  Not traitorous, but definitely radical enough to incite a war.

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4 minutes ago, retrofade said:

Did George Washington or Thomas Jefferson lead a secession from the United States in the name of continuing the ownership of people? I'll give you the answer... no, they did not. 

Kind of. They did fight against England where slavery was not legal. But thats beside the point. They either did or didn’t own slaves. I think the answer is pretty clear.

Also, it’s not a stretch of the imagination to think that Thomas Jefferson’s sexual relationship with one of his slaves was consensual... 

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6 minutes ago, RamSack said:

They did against the country they were

born into, the British Empire.

Was it you or a different CSU fan with Ram in their moniker that blamed the Jews for the wars in Europe and then the Middle East?

@thelawlorfaithful do you remember who that was?

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Just now, renoskier said:

Yes, for us. And big difference...they won.

The fact is that they still owned slaves which is a pretty barbaric thing. I wonder how many slaves of theirs were whipped?

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1 minute ago, renoskier said:

Yes, for us. And big difference...they won.

"History is written by the winners"  Bill Barr

Imagine if the union had lost the civil war.  Where would we be today?

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7 minutes ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Provocative and clever. 

Also, as a Native American I would like to get your opinion on something another Native friend of mine said.  He is of the opinion that while the Union is ultimately on the right side of History, the Confederacy winning would have been better for Native populations and Mexicans and even offered them permanent seats in congress. @youngrebelfan40 I would like your opinion on this as well as I am sure it is something you have way more knowledge than I do on and, being a white boy who never looked at this as well read as I am, it seemed out of place for me to argue.

One thing is true. Some natives aligned with the Confederacy because of the mistrust of the federal government.  Many years of treaties broken etc. The Confederacy wanted allies.Promised lots of things aka land and political holdings. However, lots of native lands had already been taken by the south for agriculture.  The end result for the Natives would not have been any different if the south had won.

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2 minutes ago, RamSack said:

Kind of. They did fight against England where slavery was not legal. But thats beside the point. They either did or didn’t own slaves. I think the answer is pretty clear.

Also, it’s not a stretch of the imagination to think that Thomas Jefferson’s sexual relationship with one of his slaves was consensual... 

Slavery wasn't ended in the British Empire until well after the Revolutionary War. While it wasn't supported or accepted in England, it was considered acceptable in British Colonies, including the American Colonies.

You're twisting yourself around in knots here and avoiding the actual point at hand.

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2 minutes ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

A rip off of Voltaire's "History is the lie commonly agreed upon".

Matters not.  It doesn't change the point.

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1 minute ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Was it you or a different CSU fan with Ram in their moniker that blamed the Jews for the wars in Europe and then the Middle East?

@thelawlorfaithful do you remember who that was?

That was not me. 
 

I’m just arguing to understand all points. I think it’s hypocritical to say that a Robert E Lee statue has to come down yet we are fine leaving Thomas Jefferson’s up. Robert E Lee left the Union because his home state seceded, not because he wanted to fight to protect the institution of slavery. Thomas Jefferson did the same basic thing. He was just on the winning side. The fact is that he still owned slaves.

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8 minutes ago, retrofade said:

Slavery wasn't ended in the British Empire until well after the Revolutionary War. While it wasn't supported or accepted in England, it was considered acceptable in British Colonies, including the American Colonies.

You're twisting yourself around in knots here and avoiding the actual point at hand.

I’m not missing the point. I posted this in another response, but it fits here to:

 

I’m just arguing to understand all points. I think it’s hypocritical to say that a Robert E Lee statue has to come down yet we are fine leaving Thomas Jefferson’s up. Robert E Lee left the Union because his home state seceded, not because he wanted to fight to protect the institution of slavery. Thomas Jefferson did the same basic thing. He was just on the winning side. The fact is that he still owned slaves.

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