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Debt Jubilee Maybe Be Solution to Corona Economic Collapse

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3 minutes ago, mysfit said:

Student loans, like back taxes, are NOT dischargeable in bankruptcy.

Not 100% accurate.  You can get student loans discharged through bankruptcy.  But it's very hard to get it done.  

https://www.npr.org/2020/01/22/797330613/myth-busted-turns-out-bankruptcy-can-wipe-out-student-loan-debt-after-all

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2 hours ago, BYUcougfan said:

I just googled the average student loan rate.  For 2017, it was 5.8%.  Not exactly a home loan rate, but far, far from predatory.  I also don't think the student loan industry is predatory by expecting the students to pay back the loan.

I would say allowing a person with no credit history, no experience with money, and a limbic system that is still forming, to borrow +100k plus of non-dischargeable debt is predatory at any interest rate. 

 

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14 hours ago, happycamper said:

It's not exactly a free market. People tell their kids to go to college, expect their experience, and the kid goes. Community colleges often don't transfer credits, god knows why. 

I'm not sure how the bolded is an argument that it's not a free market. Not saying it is one, but that seems to be a description of people making choices. 

14 hours ago, happycamper said:

Okay. Well that's pretty tangential to any point I cared about in the context of this thread. I don't really care about individual agency when it comes to trillions of dollars. At that level of money there is no individual, you only get that kind of valuation with billions of man hours of labor. 

Well, you seemed to clarify the point you cared about in the context of the thread after I started piping up. So, who's on the tangent here? As for the approach to a complicated problem which discounts individual agency or the existence of the individual at all, I'm sure you're going to get your wish. After all, this has been targeted as the next major necessary problem to throw money at since about a year after the housing crisis. And one thing that we know definitely ends up as a great thing for the individual is when some sort of central power be it a state or a corporation or any other modern bureaucratic entity discounts local and individual particulars and just opts to identify a simple, abstract, national-scale solution. Hey, maybe we can use this as a reason to finally get that pesky mass incarceration issue solved by a simple solution like a one-time cutting of all sentences in half... or even better, prison abolition.

14 hours ago, happycamper said:

If we want to talk about student loan debt, stuff like "the cost of college is still mostly room and board" and "just saying 'the military' is useless when over half of people are disqualified from joining anyway" and "we uniquely had the millennial generation, much larger than gen z, right when college participation exploded" and "in general there's zero visibility for community colleges" and "in Europe population density is so high anyone can live from home and go to university, something that is impossible in massive swaths of the US" and "it's really weird to see conservative arguments on education wrap all the way around to endorse a European style far more selective but free university system vs our land grant system" are things we could talk about. 

However, I don't. I'm tired of that argument. This is a new one! I think a debt jubliee would be one of the more effective ways to blow trillions to stimulate the eonomy vs all the other stupid things we're going to do.

Why waste a crisis when we can use it as an opportunity to fail to solve a complex problem with a simple solution and spend a bunch of money at the same time? We're pretty good at that as a country. 

Seriously, I don't even care enough to continue this much longer. Not because I don't care deeply about or know extensively about the issue of student debt and higher education, but because what's the point? This jubilee or something equally audacious is about to happen. This is our Pearl Harbor, I've been told. So I should just get on board, right? My way of understanding the world is coming to an end, I've been told.

Interestingly enough, I have a significant student loan that I have qualified for since starting grad school. they make me fill out a FAFSA even if I don't want the money. Don't need it, though it would make things easier for me in the moment. It would prevent me from making some tough choices, and it would help me replace the roof on my house and renovate my master bathroom which has broken shower. Or I can buy some stock at the bottom. Maybe I'll click "accept" now and get it forgiven, too. We're talking about trillions of dollars, so individual agency doesn't matter.

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8 hours ago, toonkee said:

This is what I think many people who I don't agree with  are coming to terms with right now and I think that's why many of them seem so defeated or feel backed into a corner. Like maybe critical systems shouldn't be set up in a way that I deem unfair. Hmm... 

FIFY

5 hours ago, toonkee said:

I would say allowing a person with no credit history, no experience with money, and a limbic system that is still forming, to borrow +100k plus of non-dischargeable debt is predatory at any interest rate. 

 

So... no one younger than their late 20s should be able to take out a student loan? I actually think that's a great idea. While we're at it, why should anyone be allowed to make any career decisions at all without any professional or financial history or with a limbic system that is still forming? That would be a very good first step to fixing the student loan crisis in this country. 

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5 hours ago, toonkee said:

I would say allowing a person with no credit history, no experience with money, and a limbic system that is still forming, to borrow +100k plus of non-dischargeable debt is predatory at any interest rate. 

 

Interesting. Aren’t many of these government loans? This sounds like the housing crisis all over again. Provide easy to get loans to people that cant afford to pay them back. 

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12 hours ago, toonkee said:

I would say allowing a person with no credit history, no experience with money, and a limbic system that is still forming, to borrow +100k plus of non-dischargeable debt is predatory at any interest rate. 

 

What exactly to you think happens with these loans at origination?  Do you think naive 18 year olds walk into the bank, with the loan officer salivating?  They quickly rush them through the process and have them sign as quickly as possible before they catch on?  The bankers then throw a party because they got another sucker?  The reality is that the parents and the kids go through this.  Everyone understands exactly what they are signing up for.  If you have buyers remorse 10 years later because you are expected to pay back the money instead of just stealing it, that is not the bank's fault.

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I do think there is an obsession with people wanting to go to more prestigious and more expensive college choices. 

I would say in a lot of fields it doesn't really matter, if society were to rebel on this issue, it would force reform.

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7 hours ago, soupslam1 said:

Interesting. Aren’t many of these government loans? This sounds like the housing crisis all over again. Provide easy to get loans to people that cant afford to pay them back. 

I dont think sub-prime loans sunk the economy because they were government loans. 

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8 hours ago, smltwnrckr said:

FIFY

So... no one younger than their late 20s should be able to take out a student loan? I actually think that's a great idea. While we're at it, why should anyone be allowed to make any career decisions at all without any professional or financial history or with a limbic system that is still forming? That would be a very good first step to fixing the student loan crisis in this country. 

I don't know. I just know the current situation is a bad idea in real life, despite how it works in theory in libertarian fantasy land.

2 hours ago, BYUcougfan said:

What exactly to you think happens with these loans at origination?  Do you think naive 18 year olds walk into the bank, with the loan officer salivating?  They quickly rush them through the process and have them sign as quickly as possible before they catch on?  The bankers then throw a party because they got another sucker?  The reality is that the parents and the kids go through this.  Everyone understands exactly what they are signing up for.  If you have buyers remorse 10 years later because you are expected to pay back the money instead of just stealing it, that is not the bank's fault.

I've had student loans like most everyone else here. Of course I'm aware there aren't greedy bankers uncorking champagne after I go into massive debt at 18 years old. I said the problem is systemic and the system is set up to fail when critical elements rely on children to make sound decisions.

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10 minutes ago, toonkee said:

I don't know. I just know the current situation is a bad idea in real life, despite how it works in theory in libertarian fantasy land.

There are a lot of assumptions in that statement. 

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10 minutes ago, toonkee said:

I don't know. I just know the current situation is a bad idea in real life, despite how it works in theory in libertarian fantasy land.

I've had student loans like most everyone else here. Of course I'm aware there aren't greedy bankers uncorking champagne after I go into massive debt at 18 years old. I said the problem is systemic and the system is set up to fail when critical elements rely on children to make sound decisions.

This is not a gotcha question, but it is going to sound like one.  When you took out your student loans, did you not talk it over with your parents?  18 year olds might not have great perspective.  I would think the parents would have some.

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My daughters figured out a way to pay for school, by working & going into the military (I realize the military isn't for everyone) and they have both said that they do not want to pay for their peers student  loans.  They  made the sacrifices and worked their asses off to get their college education.   My oldest even chose to go to an expensive private college in Idaho for her first couple of years.  As it was a liberal arts college, she then transferred to Boise State as she wanted to go into hard sciences.  Again, they did what they had to do and they expressly have said they don't want to pay for someone else's college.  

Didn't Wyoming set aside a huge amount of oil & gas money into an endowment and if you graduate from a Wyo high school and depending on your GPA, you can get all or most of your college paid for?  Isn't Wyo out of state tuition still cheaper than Colorado's in state? 

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1 hour ago, smltwnrckr said:

There are a lot of assumptions in that statement. 

Says the guy that "fixed" my post to tell me what I really mean.

 

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7 minutes ago, toonkee said:

Says the guy that "fixed" my post to tell me what I really mean.

Says the guy who made a definitive statement about why "libertarian types" are so defeated or backed into a corner right now.

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So, to summarize:

"I worked hard and paid for college so....phuck these kids!"

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8 hours ago, BYUcougfan said:

This is not a gotcha question, but it is going to sound like one.  When you took out your student loans, did you not talk it over with your parents?  18 year olds might not have great perspective.  I would think the parents would have some.

I remember there being some discussion with my mom but I would say my mother's perspective was lacking. She was a single mom and didn't go to college or have any experience with things like this. We were off and on food stamps and she couldn't qualify for a car loan. I'm sure she was still wiser than me and understood the ramifications of the loans better than me, but I also know she felt guilty and bad about herself for not being able to pay for my school. I remember her crying about it.

In any case she wasn't on the hook for the loans so I could have taken them out regardless of her counsel. 

Higher Ed just shouldn't be this expensive and crippling. I really don't care if it's because of a government loan bubble or because of a desire to improve buildings, athletics or whatever. Yes, bad choices, vanity and personal responsibility (or lack thereof) play a significant part, absolutely, I'm just saying this thing is way out of whack and I don't believe putting it all on the shoulders of the personal responsibility of 18 years old's is the smart way to go. It's just unrealistic to expect good outcomes, whether or not it's "fair".  

 

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On 4/6/2020 at 4:03 PM, renoskier said:

So why don't they discharge student loan debt?

Very difficult, sometimes impossible to get it discharged thru BK.

Because it used to be too easy to discharge in bankruptcy. It was predatory then too, just opposite.

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9 hours ago, smltwnrckr said:

There are a lot of assumptions in that statement. 

As there are in the system, that all graduates get a job and all those degrees jobs pay enough to pay back the loan.

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I wonder how, many college students get a degree and then end up getting a job they could have done without a degree? Or end up getting a job that has nothing to do with their college major because there are so few available jobs in their college career choice. I’ll bet it’s a buttload on both counts. 

Which brings up the question why are you going to college in the first place?

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