Jump to content
mugtang

Debt Jubilee Maybe Be Solution to Corona Economic Collapse

Recommended Posts

So landlords would own their properties free and clear?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, smltwnrckr said:

Personal anecdotes are not the solution, they are a way to understand the problem. I'm suggesting that people who take out student loans have agency. I didn't know that was such a crazy thing to say.

Personal ancedotes tend to land in the "my way" side of argument in debates like this one. 

 

7 hours ago, smltwnrckr said:

If that person isn't going to be able to pay off the loans after the end of the education, I would say that by definition is an irresponsible decision... at least financially. Maybe they don't have the resources in place (not even financial resources, but mentorship resources) to make that decision. I would say that's another conversation than a blanket loan forgiveness. And the system is all kinds of screwed up... all the way down the cost of tuition in state schools going up like crazy in the past decade to the idea that college is the only route to social mobility. How is a debt jubilee going to solve those things, though?

Payoff loans by the end of any education??? Do you expect an undergrad to be working fulltime making $35K+/yr? If that was the case, it doubtful they would need a loan to begin with. 

We agree that "the system is all kinds of screwed up". 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, DoubleBlueGold said:

Personal ancedotes tend to land in the "my way" side of argument in debates like this one. 

 

Payoff loans by the end of any education??? Do you expect an undergrad to be working fulltime making $35K+/yr? If that was the case, it doubtful they would need a loan to begin with. 

We agree that "the system is all kinds of screwed up". 

I think you misinterpreted his argument. Loans have terms and conditions. He said "If that person isn't going to be able to pay off the loans after the end of education, I would say that is by definition an irresponsible decision... at least financially." Meaning that the position that you are educating yourself for has to have pay commensurate with the cost of education, so you can pay back the loan over the specified period.

edited to include full quotation.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would say that a lot of immature eighteen year olds coming out of high school have limited knowledge about finances as their parents have made most financial decisions for them their whole life. Most can’t even balance a check book. 

In that respect I blame some parents who don’t sit down with their kids and discuss the financial ramifications of their decisions. 

Still you don’t have to be a math wizard to estimate what it’s going to cost to get through college and what your career choice pays. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, DoubleBlueGold said:

Personal ancedotes tend to land in the "my way" side of argument in debates like this one. 

 

So do statistics. 

Quote

 

Payoff loans by the end of any education??? Do you expect an undergrad to be working fulltime making $35K+/yr? If that was the case, it doubtful they would need a loan to begin with. 

We agree that "the system is all kinds of screwed up". 

No no, pay off after not by the end. You dont have to start paying until after you have a job. 

Basically, what @Los_Aztecas said.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, smltwnrckr said:

Yeah, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one... especially the pro oligarchy comment. On one hand you seem to be talking about this as a unique and novel idea to deal with an unprecedented economic situation. On the other, you seem to be saying that the economic conditions before COVID-19 as they relate to middle class debt, especially student loans, were leading us to invasions from hostile barbarians. I honestly recall us having this exact conversation or one very much like it right around 2009 or so. I'm not sure what that says about any of this. But I'm sure it says something. 

Well more and more people are getting college degrees in the last 50 years or so, so at a certain point people seem to be over and over again willing to pay the price for them. Well, maybe until they have to actually pay the price.

It's not exactly a free market. People tell their kids to go to college, expect their experience, and the kid goes. Community colleges often don't transfer credits, god knows why. 

11 hours ago, smltwnrckr said:

I am worried about problems in higher education, and that's the overarching theme of my participation in this thread. The whole point I decided to insert my big fat foot into this whole thing was because of the idea perpetuated by many that people who took out student loans had no or very little agency in that decision, and that's why we should forgive their debt. This idea, that we should bail out people who hold student debt because they didn't know any better or had no other choice than the ones they made, has been around for quite a while. And those actively promoting idea paint the same picture of a particular kind of student loan debt holder, one who I suggest is rarer than many people make it out to be. Furthermore, I recall these conversations popping up right around the wake of the last massive bailout... student loan debt was going to be the next housing crisis when the housing crisis wasn't even over yet. So while you may be arguing, reasonably, in good faith, that this is the best thing we can do right now for our current economic predicament, you'll have to forgive me thinking bout this issue in the same context I thought of it a month ago - when I was certain this kind of proposal would be floated whenever we slipped into our next, inevitable recession. 

Okay. Well that's pretty tangential to any point I cared about in the context of this thread. I don't really care about individual agency when it comes to trillions of dollars. At that level of money there is no individual, you only get that kind of valuation with billions of man hours of labor. 

If we want to talk about student loan debt, stuff like "the cost of college is still mostly room and board" and "just saying 'the military' is useless when over half of people are disqualified from joining anyway" and "we uniquely had the millennial generation, much larger than gen z, right when college participation exploded" and "in general there's zero visibility for community colleges" and "in Europe population density is so high anyone can live from home and go to university, something that is impossible in massive swaths of the US" and "it's really weird to see conservative arguments on education wrap all the way around to endorse a European style far more selective but free university system vs our land grant system" are things we could talk about. 

However, I don't. I'm tired of that argument. This is a new one! I think a debt jubliee would be one of the more effective ways to blow trillions to stimulate the eonomy vs all the other stupid things we're going to do.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And yet we have a president who has declared bankruptcy how many times?

Has walked away and left suppliers, bankrupting them, how many times?

 

All this hand wringing about not shouldering responsibility doesn't move the dial for me in comparison to what the rich and presidential get away with.

  • Facepalm 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So why are millions of 18 year old's entering into obscene amounts of crippling debt to get a degree and in turn hobbling the ability of our young people to dream american?  We don't even let them by cigarettes anymore at 18.  Their brains are still forming.

Probably several causes but maybe as a society we should focus on that question instead of blaming it on the lack of good decision making by children.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, mysfit said:

And yet we have a president who has declared bankruptcy how many times?

Has walked away and left suppliers, bankrupting them, how many times?

 

All this hand wringing about not shouldering responsibility doesn't move the dial for me in comparison to what the rich and presidential get away with.

It’s very obvious you know nothing about business. There are hundreds of declared bankruptcies every day. And you can say the same about personal bankruptcies.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/5/2020 at 12:23 PM, Akkula said:

Okay boomer.  The anecdotes don't really explain the mass generational differences in student loan debt that more recent generations have in comparison to what boomers got.  The explanation is that boomers defunded higher ed for tax cuts so students have to bear those higher costs.  What would the cost of your same educational program cost today?  Have you ever looked?

 

As a Xennial (or whatever you call the group before Millenials), I think there's merit to both sides.    College Tuition have increased waaaay out of proportion with inflation--so today's kids aren't taking out the same % of loans proportionally that the Boomers did.

However, Boomers of that day were also willing to do things like "Move to Montana" or whatever rural population space in order to make ends meet.  Today's younger generation tend to want to congregate to big, really expensive urban areas.  No, you can't afford a studio apartment in San Francisco, but you could buy a two bedroom house in Wyoming, for example.  There's a lot of smaller decisions like that everyone makes those memes about millenials for.  The job market has also changed a lot in ways I don't think would be possible for a normal person to predict.  Sure we stopped our Millenial Children from being gasoline attendants, but who could have forseen there would be too many lawyers or pharmacists or business executives?  In the 1950's 7% of people went to college, today it's over 50%.  There's naturally more competition for a lot of jobs there wasn't a lot of competition for previously.

  • Cheers 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, soupslam1 said:

It’s very obvious you know nothing about business. There are hundreds of declared bankruptcies every day. And you can say the same about personal bankruptcies.

Yet unlike other "irresponsible choices" student debt is generally very difficult to discharge through bankruptcy.

The student loan system has become predatory rather than helpful.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, WAC_FAN said:

 

As a Xennial (or whatever you call the group before Millenials), I think there's merit to both sides.    College Tuition have increased waaaay out of proportion with inflation--so today's kids aren't taking out the same % of loans proportionally that the Boomers did.

However, Boomers of that day were also willing to do things like "Move to Montana" or whatever rural population space in order to make ends meet.  Today's younger generation tend to want to congregate to big, really expensive urban areas.  No, you can't afford a studio apartment in San Francisco, but you could buy a two bedroom house in Wyoming, for example.  There's a lot of smaller decisions like that everyone makes those memes about millenials for.  The job market has also changed a lot in ways I don't think would be possible for a normal person to predict.  Sure we stopped our Millenial Children from being gasoline attendants, but who could have forseen there would be too many lawyers or pharmacists or business executives?  In the 1950's 7% of people went to college, today it's over 50%.  There's naturally more competition for a lot of jobs there wasn't a lot of competition for previously.

I don't really think that it is "want to" so much as it is "that's where the jobs are"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, happycamper said:

It's not exactly a free market. People tell their kids to go to college, expect their experience, and the kid goes. Community colleges often don't transfer credits, god knows why. 

Okay. Well that's pretty tangential to any point I cared about in the context of this thread. I don't really care about individual agency when it comes to trillions of dollars. At that level of money there is no individual, you only get that kind of valuation with billions of man hours of labor. 

If we want to talk about student loan debt, stuff like "the cost of college is still mostly room and board" and "just saying 'the military' is useless when over half of people are disqualified from joining anyway" and "we uniquely had the millennial generation, much larger than gen z, right when college participation exploded" and "in general there's zero visibility for community colleges" and "in Europe population density is so high anyone can live from home and go to university, something that is impossible in massive swaths of the US" and "it's really weird to see conservative arguments on education wrap all the way around to endorse a European style far more selective but free university system vs our land grant system" are things we could talk about. 

However, I don't. I'm tired of that argument. This is a new one! I think a debt jubliee would be one of the more effective ways to blow trillions to stimulate the eonomy vs all the other stupid things we're going to do.

This is what I think many libertarian types are coming to terms with right now and I think that's why many of them seem so defeated or feel backed into a corner. Like maybe critical systems shouldn't be set up so that a mass of people making "poor personal decisions" can bring the whole thing down, like that thing that has me in it too. That's not fair either. Hmm... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, toonkee said:

Yet unlike other "irresponsible choices" student debt is generally very difficult to discharge through bankruptcy.

The student loan system has become predatory rather than helpful.  

I just googled the average student loan rate.  For 2017, it was 5.8%.  Not exactly a home loan rate, but far, far from predatory.  I also don't think the student loan industry is predatory by expecting the students to pay back the loan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, soupslam1 said:

It’s very obvious you know nothing about business. There are hundreds of declared bankruptcies every day. And you can say the same about personal bankruptcies.

So why don't they discharge student loan debt?

Very difficult, sometimes impossible to get it discharged thru BK.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, renoskier said:

So why don't they discharge student loan debt?

Very difficult, sometimes impossible to get it discharged thru BK.

You'd have doctors go to medical school, rack up hundreds of thousands of dollars in student loan debt, and then upon graduation, immediately declare bankruptcy to wipe out all of their debt.

That of course would not be sustainable. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, renoskier said:

So why don't they discharge student loan debt?

Very difficult, sometimes impossible to get it discharged thru BK.

I am not an expert, but I believe if you enter into a government program student loan, you are exchanging your ability to discharge the debt in a BK for having a rate that does not look like a credit card rate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, happycamper said:

I don't really think that it is "want to" so much as it is "that's where the jobs are"

It probably depends on what you do.   But the unemployment rates have been generally better in the small and middle cities than they are in the really really large cities.  In several really small towns they are having problems any skilled workers to settle there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, WAC_FAN said:

It probably depends on what you do.   But the unemployment rates have been generally better in the small and middle cities than they are in the really really large cities.  In several really small towns they are having problems any skilled workers to settle there.

I mean it's a bit of an imbalance too right? Doesn't matter how many architects they need if all 7 chemistry teacher jobs are filled for the next 15 years. Whereas in a huge city...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Student loans, like back taxes, are NOT dischargeable in bankruptcy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×