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mugtang

Debt Jubilee Maybe Be Solution to Corona Economic Collapse

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I still see this as a two pronged economic problem

1) The working people and small businesses 

2) Large corporations that employ thousands and the peripheral thousands who supply the fromer.

If there was to be a Basic Income (BI) given to every employee that $$ would go right back into the economy as if they were still working.....this $$ would go to mortgages, auto loans , utilities, etc and the basic needs that would generally go to groceries, and other smaller businesses 

Small businesses need some support just to keep their doors open, this $$ would go to maintaining the overhead to a certain extent 

Large businesses need to be kept afloat just for the simple reason that they employ so many that if they were to collapse, where would the jobs be when things improve, not to mention the massive number of suppliers that major companies use as a supply chain - This was a reason to bail out the vehicle manufacturers, it's not just Ford or GM that go under they sink every auto parts supplier down the line, same with Boeing 

This entire thing is multi leg supported and if any one of the legs is pulled out total collapse is possible so it's looking like it's going to have to be an across the spectrum solution that injects support at all levels of the economic chain 

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32 minutes ago, UNLV2001 said:

I still see this as a two pronged economic problem

1) The working people and small businesses 

2) Large corporations that employ thousands and the peripheral thousands who supply the fromer.

If there was to be a Basic Income (BI) given to every employee that $$ would go right back into the economy as if they were still working.....this $$ would go to mortgages, auto loans , utilities, etc and the basic needs that would generally go to groceries, and other smaller businesses 

Small businesses need some support just to keep their doors open, this $$ would go to maintaining the overhead to a certain extent 

Large businesses need to be kept afloat just for the simple reason that they employ so many that if they were to collapse, where would the jobs be when things improve, not to mention the massive number of suppliers that major companies use as a supply chain - This was a reason to bail out the vehicle manufacturers, it's not just Ford or GM that go under they sink every auto parts supplier down the line, same with Boeing 

This entire thing is multi leg supported and if any one of the legs is pulled out total collapse is possible so it's looking like it's going to have to be an across the spectrum solution that injects support at all levels of the economic chain 

This is why I don't really have a huge issue with bailing out the corporations.  I work for a large corporation and while I'm fine for now, the feedback could ultimately cost me my job.  I work in affordable housing and we make money off of rental income from LIHTC properties.  And if they aren't paying rent for an extended period of time there won't be money to pay my salary.  This will require outside of the box thinking to resolve.  Traditional stimulus methods won't work which is why I, a fiscal conservative and somewhat traditional capitalist, am throwing all that out of the window and am advocating for an emergency UBI and more.  At this point inflation in a couple of years (which we can fight by contracting the money supply, raising interest rates, etc) is much better than economic ruin now.

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3 hours ago, soupslam1 said:

Which is exactly what I did. I also worked going through college and ended up debt free. It’s also a matter of choices. My younger brother decided he wanted to party away his young adult years instead of getting an education. He ended up being a truck driver most of his adult life. How many are there like my brother? 

When did you go to college?

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3 hours ago, Los_Aztecas said:

I have had the same experiences as @smltwnrckr. My family made too much money growing up, and we didn't qualify for much financial assistance. Co signed loans were a no go. Instead my siblings and I went different paths. Junior colleges to state schools, while working minimized debt. The military provides excellent education benefits post service. It is possible to graduate college with a usable degree and a valuable skillset without a mountain of debt. It is not easy, it is a sacrifice. My life would have been much better if I was out partying at a frat instead of working nights, or if I went to a better school like Stanford and racked up debt with the clarity that I wouldn't be responsible for it. 

It's not just my family. Most of the working professionals I know are vehemently against student loan forgiveness as well. Fairness and justice are important themes in our country. You argue that because the system is broken people should not be responsible for their decisions because of fundamental injustice. I agree that the system needs an overhaul, but there are still options to limit debt. It is a greater injustice to those that were responsible to institute a college debt jubilee. 

This depends on the career you pursue. 

Some needed careers, like some in social work, require professional degrees. These programs almost always do not support their students financially. Should only rich people be in social work? 

What about law school? Should only rich people, or the most absolutely exceptional poor people, be able to be lawyers at big firms?

Should only rich people be Pharmacists? Vets? Doctors? Optometrists? I say no.

I never said all student loan debt should be forgiven. I don't think that's practical. Maybe eliminating interest is a fairer route.

 

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An old testament solution, gotta love it.  How is a Jew or Christian going argue against?

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2 hours ago, mugtang said:

This is why I don't really have a huge issue with bailing out the corporations.  I work for a large corporation and while I'm fine for now, the feedback could ultimately cost me my job.  I work in affordable housing and we make money off of rental income from LIHTC properties.  And if they aren't paying rent for an extended period of time there won't be money to pay my salary.  This will require outside of the box thinking to resolve.  Traditional stimulus methods won't work which is why I, a fiscal conservative and somewhat traditional capitalist, am throwing all that out of the window and am advocating for an emergency UBI and more.  At this point inflation in a couple of years (which we can fight by contracting the money supply, raising interest rates, etc) is much better than economic ruin now.

Your company sounds like one that could survive with tenants getting their rent in, That's the benefit of putting some f the $$ in at the bottom it keeps some trains on the track and maybe your company doesn't need the full government stimulus which would save some $$ 

Just giving people their basic salary / paycheck could keep some things solvent and not need the government stimulus to the full extent 

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4 minutes ago, UNLV2001 said:

Your company sounds like one that could survive with tenants getting their rent in, That's the benefit of putting some f the $$ in at the bottom it keeps some trains on the track and maybe your company doesn't need the full government stimulus which would save some $$ 

Just giving people their basic salary / paycheck could keep some things solvent and not need the government stimulus to the full extent 

I actually agree.  Which is why I would’ve rather had the government just supplement peoples salaries through their employers instead of the beefing up of unemployment.  Kinda like what they’re doing to the SBA thing but on a larger scale. 

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Just now, mugtang said:

I actually agree.  Which is why I would’ve rather had the government just supplement peoples salaries through their employers instead of the beefing up of unemployment.  Kinda like what they’re doing to the SBA thing but on a larger scale. 

Agree - need to keep the bottom from collapsing and taking down everything above in the economic chain 

Certain incentives could be used too.....take Boeing for example.  Airlines aren't flying much, maybe in the near term it's time fr R&D at a higher than normal rate or even t retrofit older planes that are currently mothballed so that when they do come back they are upgraded.....something along those lines.

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26 minutes ago, UNLV2001 said:

Agree - need to keep the bottom from collapsing and taking down everything above in the economic chain 

Certain incentives could be used too.....take Boeing for example.  Airlines aren't flying much, maybe in the near term it's time fr R&D at a higher than normal rate or even t retrofit older planes that are currently mothballed so that when they do come back they are upgraded.....something along those lines.

Or R&D into a 6th generation fighter. 

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I'd like to see all the big companies broken up into smaller ones.

 

More regional. More local sourcing. More connected to the communities which supply their labor.

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3 minutes ago, mysfit said:

I'd like to see all the big companies broken up into smaller ones.

 

More regional. More local sourcing. More connected to the communities which supply their labor.

You mean the way it used to be before small family owned hardware stores were ground into the dirt by Lowe’s and Home Depot? Not going to happen. 

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9 minutes ago, mysfit said:

I'd like to see all the big companies broken up into smaller ones.

 

More regional. More local sourcing. More connected to the communities which supply their labor.

 I thought you were a Bezos lover.

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1 hour ago, youngrebelfan40 said:

This depends on the career you pursue. 

Some needed careers, like some in social work, require professional degrees. These programs almost always do not support their students financially. Should only rich people be in social work? 

What about law school? Should only rich people, or the most absolutely exceptional poor people, be able to be lawyers at big firms?

Should only rich people be Pharmacists? Vets? Doctors? Optometrists? I say no.

I never said all student loan debt should be forgiven. I don't think that's practical. Maybe eliminating interest is a fairer route.

 

I know doctors, lawyers, and pharmacists who are aren't rich, their families weren't rich, and they put themselves through school. You make it sound impossible, when it definitely is not. Do rich people have an advantage? OF COURSE THEY DO. That doesn't mean others don't have an opportunity. Social work is an interesting conundrum, and perhaps we should financially support them akin to teachers. Like I said previously, reform for cost of education is necessary and should be a priority. The bottom line is people choose their own path in life, and should be held responsible for their choices.

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11 hours ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Because democrats had not driven up the price of education yet by destroying market forces under the guise of fairness.

Well regardless of whatever reason (contrived or not) the facts are that boomers got to start their careers with little or no student loan debt.  Somewhere in between all the money got stripped out of higher education but it isn't like the cost just went down so someone had to pick up the tab.  Look at Colorado as an example where all the schools basically get almost no state funding...and kids are graduating with tons of student loan debt.  

It is pretty hard to just chalk it up to "kids these days are MUCH lazier and stupider then in my day."  We have had 50 years of intergenerational cost shifting in a lot of areas.

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1 hour ago, Akkula said:

Well regardless of whatever reason (contrived or not) the facts are that boomers got to start their careers with little or no student loan debt.  Somewhere in between all the money got stripped out of higher education but it isn't like the cost just went down so someone had to pick up the tab.  Look at Colorado as an example where all the schools basically get almost no state funding...and kids are graduating with tons of student loan debt.  

It is pretty hard to just chalk it up to "kids these days are MUCH lazier and stupider then in my day."  We have had 50 years of intergenerational cost shifting in a lot of areas.

No, you asked for the reason not the effect and I gave it to you 

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The system has been getting out of whack for a while. We can take control of the reset or the reset can control of us. But, the reset appears to be coming. Total fairness is not an option but we've never had fairness anyway so my advice is not to hem and haw about it too much.

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On 4/4/2020 at 5:36 AM, Akkula said:

Why didnt boomers have piles of student debt?

Choices made. I went to college and med school at Nevada, residency at CU and had a debt of less than 40k. One of my partners did the Dartmouth,Tulane and Columbia Presbyterian in NYC and had over 250k in debt. We’re both younger boomers and ended up in the same place. Education is the great equalizer and state universities have done great job. My daughter was offered a full ride (Tuition) to UNM even despite not having applied. Most states try to identify those kids that can perform at college level and try to keep them. And those that might not be ready still get at least 60% discount in NM and until this virus crisis, a bill was in the legislature to get everybody free tuition.

The fault for this crisis in my opinion does lie with the boomers and gen xers pushing the narrative to their kids that you can be anything you want to be narrative, exacerbated by easy student loan access. Unfortunately, economic realities are harsh. 
 

Back to choices made, I have a patient who is in the financial aid department at our local college dispersing loan checks. A very large number of the students mysteriously disappear from class as soon as they get their checks 2 weeks in to the semester. Maybe anecdotal but I’m thinking paying back student debt isn’t high on a lot of students priority list.

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16 hours ago, mugtang said:

I actually agree.  Which is why I would’ve rather had the government just supplement peoples salaries through their employers instead of the beefing up of unemployment.  Kinda like what they’re doing to the SBA thing but on a larger scale. 

That would’ve been better. And it’s pretty much what they’re doing in Germany, UK, and other places. Though bolstering unemployment was the next best option. The stimulus checks are more than likely going to be wasted money.

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The arguments for and against it went rapidly from "it is a radical idea that could help the eocnomy/it is a radical idea that wouldn't work as much as it would cost" to just virtue signalling on each side

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3 hours ago, NMpackalum said:

Choices made. I went to college and med school at Nevada, residency at CU and had a debt of less than 40k. One of my partners did the Dartmouth,Tulane and Columbia Presbyterian in NYC and had over 250k in debt. We’re both younger boomers and ended up in the same place. Education is the great equalizer and state universities have done great job. My daughter was offered a full ride (Tuition) to UNM even despite not having applied. Most states try to identify those kids that can perform at college level and try to keep them. And those that might not be ready still get at least 60% discount in NM and until this virus crisis, a bill was in the legislature to get everybody free tuition.

The fault for this crisis in my opinion does lie with the boomers and gen xers pushing the narrative to their kids that you can be anything you want to be narrative, exacerbated by easy student loan access. Unfortunately, economic realities are harsh. 
 

Back to choices made, I have a patient who is in the financial aid department at our local college dispersing loan checks. A very large number of the students mysteriously disappear from class as soon as they get their checks 2 weeks in to the semester. Maybe anecdotal but I’m thinking paying back student debt isn’t high on a lot of students priority list.

Okay boomer.  The anecdotes don't really explain the mass generational differences in student loan debt that more recent generations have in comparison to what boomers got.  The explanation is that boomers defunded higher ed for tax cuts so students have to bear those higher costs.  What would the cost of your same educational program cost today?  Have you ever looked?

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