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BSUTOP25

I’m issuing a public apology

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2 hours ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

It does. But our failure was indicative of a failure prevalent among most of our allies. Democracy relies on the people to direct their leaders. We didn’t really get oh shit about this until an afternoon came when we started the day wondering if there would be fans in the seats during March Madness and by the end the NBA was called off because players got sick, Tom Hanks contracted it in Australian, and our worthless President gave the least assuring Oval Office speech in history. Conte, Macron, Johnson, Sanchez, Bibi...these people didn’t get caught with their pants down too because of anything we did or didn’t do.

This is America. We're supposed to be exceptional.  Don't let Trump off the hook because a bunch of other jag off countries pissed their early opportunities away.

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42 minutes ago, toonkee said:

This is America. We're supposed to be exceptional.  Don't let Trump off the hook because a bunch of other jag off countries pissed their early opportunities away.

Yesterday you wanted to be more like Denmark. Today we’re supposed to be exceptional. You know who’s not doing exceptional right now? Denmark.

I literally called Trump worthless in the post you quoted. The world doesn’t revolve around him. The failure here is so widespread across so many countries that it defies finger pointing, unless you take the view that everyone’s leaders were incompetent idiots just like Trump.

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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26 minutes ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

Yesterday you wanted to be more like Denmark. Today we’re supposed to be exceptional. You know who’s not doing exceptional right now? Denmark.

I literally called Trump worthless in the post you quoted. The world doesn’t revolve around him. The failure here is so widespread across so many countries that it defies finger pointing, unless you take the view that everyone’s leaders were incompetent idiots just like Trump.

I said Denmark wasn't Venezuela because you were seemingly equating the current state of the grocery stores to how it will be in our socialist future.

My viewpoint is just not as fatalist as yours.  Of course, he could not stop the virus, but Trump had more time, more resources and two oceans of advantage to help prepare for this and mitigate effects. Instead, he did the bare minimum and told everyone it was under control.   

By the way, just taking a cursory glance at the data it looks like Denmark's new cases are dropping. In fairness, I really don't know what their earliest responses were but I would bet their PM didn't go around on an arena jack-off tour making it harder for everyone to get on the same page about it though.

 

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6 hours ago, toonkee said:

I said Denmark wasn't Venezuela because you were seemingly equating the current state of the grocery stores to how it will be in our socialist future.

My viewpoint is just not as fatalist as yours.  Of course, he could not stop the virus, but Trump had more time, more resources and two oceans of advantage to help prepare for this and mitigate effects. Instead, he did the bare minimum and told everyone it was under control.   

By the way, just taking a cursory glance at the data it looks like Denmark's new cases are dropping. In fairness, I really don't know what their earliest responses were but I would bet their PM didn't go around on an arena jack-off tour making it harder for everyone to get on the same page about it though.

Denmark’s cases are dropping because they stopped testing healthcare workers, the most at risk of the population.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thelocal.dk/20200321/denmark-sees-rise-in-hospitalised-patients-as-health-professionals-could-miss-out-on-coronavirus-testing/amp

Hospitals are also in the process of training doctors and nurses with other specialities to work in intensive care units.

It comes as three regions have temporarily stopped testing health professionals for the coronavirus.

The Region on Southern Denmark, Central Denmark and the Capital Region have introduced the temporary stop because of current supply problems and great pressure on capacity, according to two press releases from the regions.

The National Board of Health recently updated its guidelines on the management of Covid-19.

The guidelines stated that health professionals performing critical functions and exhibiting mild to moderate symptoms of Covid-19 may be investigated and possibly tested for the coronavirus if their employer or doctor believed it to be quickly needed. 

However, due to the rising number of cases, it may be necessary for a region to give priority to testing patients who are most seriously ill.

In Italy the healthcare workers are getting leveled.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8129499/amp/More-2-600-medical-workers-infected-coronavirus-Italy.html

Then later today it emerged another two medical workers had passed away from the illness, the Italian national federation of doctors guilds said.

More than 2,600 medical workers have been infected with coronavirus in Italy - 8.3 per cent of the country's total cases, it emerged last night, as the government extended lockdown measures beyond the start of April today.

Im sorry if I’m being fatalistic. I’m praying for your son and for you and the rest of yours. Be well, friend. I’ll try to be less high strung tomorrow.

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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4 minutes ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

Denmark’s cases are dropping because they stopped testing healthcare workers, the most at risk of the population.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thelocal.dk/20200321/denmark-sees-rise-in-hospitalised-patients-as-health-professionals-could-miss-out-on-coronavirus-testing/amp

Hospitals are also in the process of training doctors and nurses with other specialities to work in intensive care units.

It comes as three regions have temporarily stopped testing health professionals for the coronavirus.

The Region on Southern Denmark, Central Denmark and the Capital Region have introduced the temporary stop because of current supply problems and great pressure on capacity, according to two press releases from the regions.

The National Board of Health recently updated its guidelines on the management of Covid-19.

The guidelines stated that health professionals performing critical functions and exhibiting mild to moderate symptoms of Covid-19 may be investigated and possibly tested for the coronavirus if their employer or doctor believed it to be quickly needed. 

However, due to the rising number of cases, it may be necessary for a region to give priority to testing patients who are most seriously ill.

In Italy the healthcare workers are getting leveled.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8129499/amp/More-2-600-medical-workers-infected-coronavirus-Italy.html

Then later today it emerged another two medical workers had passed away from the illness, the Italian national federation of doctors guilds said.

More than 2,600 medical workers have been infected with coronavirus in Italy - 8.3 per cent of the country's total cases, it emerged last night, as the government extended lockdown measures beyond the start of April today.

Im sorry if I’m being fatalistic. I’m praying for your son and for you and the rest of yours. Be well, friend. I’ll try to be less high strung tomorrow.

We need to do whatever is necessary to get the PPE and testing kits that the hospitals need to keep our medical workers safe. Money should be no object, get 'er dun.

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3 hours ago, Los_Aztecas said:

We need to do whatever is necessary to get the PPE and testing kits that the hospitals need to keep our medical workers safe. Money should be no object, get 'er dun.

It’s not just healthcare workers. We need to get them to electricians that keep our power going. To the people that work at our water supply facilities. To the people that haul away our garbage, work in warehouses, stock and bag our groceries. To all the people that do the things in the supply chains that make all those things possible. 

Money doesn’t matter for the foreseeable future, because there doesn’t exist a market to make any in it. The government is going to pick winners and losers, and they better pick correctly. Otherwise we’ll all be worse off losers than we’re all going to be anyways.

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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15 hours ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

Yesterday you wanted to be more like Denmark. Today we’re supposed to be exceptional. You know who’s not doing exceptional right now? Denmark.

I literally called Trump worthless in the post you quoted. The world doesn’t revolve around him. The failure here is so widespread across so many countries that it defies finger pointing, unless you take the view that everyone’s leaders were incompetent idiots just like Trump.

I don’t want to lay everything at Trump’s feet, but his failure of leadership doesn’t just affect us, it affects our allies. I don’t know if this is a reason why Western Europe is performing poorly in this, and it may be a pretty big leap, but it is an idea worth considering.

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14 minutes ago, NVGiant said:

I don’t want to lay everything at Trump’s feet, but his failure of leadership doesn’t just affect us, it affects our allies. I don’t know if this is a reason why Western Europe is performing poorly in this, and it may be a pretty big leap, but it is an idea worth considering.

Sorry man, but I just don’t agree with this at all. It’s not our responsibility to take care of Europe with every single +++++ing thing. It’s not Trump’s or America’s fault for breakdowns in France, Spain, and Italy. We already subsidize their social welfare systems by basically shoring up their defense. 

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5 minutes ago, BSUTOP25 said:

Sorry man, but I just don’t agree with this at all. It’s not our responsibility to take care of Europe with every single +++++ing thing. It’s not Trump’s or America’s fault for breakdowns in France, Spain, and Italy. We already subsidize their social welfare systems by basically shoring up their defense. 

It’s not our responsibility, of course. And I never said it was America’s fault. Every country is responsible for its own handling of emergencies. But we have led the West since WWII not out of altruism, but for our own self-interest. And when we don’t lead, no one does. And that can have negative consequences for us. 

Is that the case with this? I have no idea. And it might be unlikely. Like I said, it could be a pretty big leap. But I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say the West often looks to us in time of crisis to lead, and right now that is something we are both unwilling and unable to do.

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1 minute ago, NVGiant said:

It’s not our responsibility, of course. And I never said it was America’s fault. Every country is responsible for its own handling of emergencies. But we have led the West since WWII not out of altruism, but for our own self-interest. And when we don’t lead, no one does. And that can have negative consequences for us. 

Is that the case with this? I have no idea. And it might be unlikely. Like I said, it could be a pretty big leap. But I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say the West often looks to us in time of crisis to lead, and right now that is something we are both unwilling and unable to do.

Okay, that reads a little better. Sorry if I misinterpreted your intent. 

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46 minutes ago, NVGiant said:

It’s not our responsibility, of course. And I never said it was America’s fault. Every country is responsible for its own handling of emergencies. But we have led the West since WWII not out of altruism, but for our own self-interest. And when we don’t lead, no one does. And that can have negative consequences for us. 

Is that the case with this? I have no idea. And it might be unlikely. Like I said, it could be a pretty big leap. But I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say the West often looks to us in time of crisis to lead, and right now that is something we are both unwilling and unable to do.

I think its completely reasonable. 

To add to that, one of the things leaders do in a crisis is confer with other leaders to try and come up with plans to solve stuff. To coordinate things. That always works best when those leaders already know each other and have established some sense of mutual trust or understanding of overlapping interests. How much different are things when a leader delibedately takes a flamethrower to that stuff? Both domestically and abroad?

It's a counterfactual. We'll never know what this would have been like with a better leader in the white house. And ya, blah blah the world didn't trust obama or Bush or something. But like you say, it's not an unreasonable thing to think about. 

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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9 hours ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

Denmark’s cases are dropping because they stopped testing healthcare workers, the most at risk of the population.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thelocal.dk/20200321/denmark-sees-rise-in-hospitalised-patients-as-health-professionals-could-miss-out-on-coronavirus-testing/amp

Hospitals are also in the process of training doctors and nurses with other specialities to work in intensive care units.

It comes as three regions have temporarily stopped testing health professionals for the coronavirus.

The Region on Southern Denmark, Central Denmark and the Capital Region have introduced the temporary stop because of current supply problems and great pressure on capacity, according to two press releases from the regions.

The National Board of Health recently updated its guidelines on the management of Covid-19.

The guidelines stated that health professionals performing critical functions and exhibiting mild to moderate symptoms of Covid-19 may be investigated and possibly tested for the coronavirus if their employer or doctor believed it to be quickly needed. 

However, due to the rising number of cases, it may be necessary for a region to give priority to testing patients who are most seriously ill.

In Italy the healthcare workers are getting leveled.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8129499/amp/More-2-600-medical-workers-infected-coronavirus-Italy.html

Then later today it emerged another two medical workers had passed away from the illness, the Italian national federation of doctors guilds said.

More than 2,600 medical workers have been infected with coronavirus in Italy - 8.3 per cent of the country's total cases, it emerged last night, as the government extended lockdown measures beyond the start of April today.

Im sorry if I’m being fatalistic. I’m praying for your son and for you and the rest of yours. Be well, friend. I’ll try to be less high strung tomorrow.

Thanks for the discussion, prayers and another highly informative post.

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3 hours ago, NVGiant said:

I don’t want to lay everything at Trump’s feet, but his failure of leadership doesn’t just affect us, it affects our allies. I don’t know if this is a reason why Western Europe is performing poorly in this, and it may be a pretty big leap, but it is an idea worth considering.

Trump being unable to communicate as a leader during a crisis is not helpful. I see the problem as much more deeply rooted than that though. We, the west, gambled that we could trade with the CCP and they’d become honest brokers. They did not. Now we don’t have the capacity to produce the products we need right now to put a bandage on the problem. This is a mindset that pervaded our body politic since Nixon. And it was a fair gamble, soft power has its uses. But nearly 50 years had accustomed us to this arrangement.

Might an extraordinary leader have had the foresight to see this coming 2 months ago and had the political bravery to sound the alarm in the midst of a primary election so we could begin to ramp up production of masks and ventilators? Perhaps. Those type of people seem few and far between in our time. Sometimes you get a Churchill and FDR, we got Trump, Merkel, Johnson, Macron, Conte, Trudeau. 

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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22 hours ago, toonkee said:

This is America. We're supposed to be exceptional.  Don't let Trump off the hook because a bunch of other jag off countries pissed their early opportunities away.

This was precisely my reaction when I read tlf’s paragraph. Why do we hear this expressed when it comes to freedoms, national power, educational system, health care (ha!), etc, but then get excuses like “everybody else failed the same way” from many who otherwise fall back on good old American exceptionalism when they want to argue about ‘Murca being the bestest at everything it wants to be the best at? 

*You know I respect you, tlf. You’re one of the most thoughtful and intelligent posters on this forum, but I can’t agree with the excuse making for Trump in the early days of this expanding crisis or that almost nothing he could have done then would have made a meaningful impact on the ultimate course of COVID-19 in the US. 

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3 hours ago, Posturedoc said:

This was precisely my reaction when I read tlf’s paragraph. Why do we hear this expressed when it comes to freedoms, national power, educational system, health care (ha!), etc, but then get excuses like “everybody else failed the same way” from many who otherwise fall back on good old American exceptionalism when they want to argue about ‘Murca being the bestest at everything it wants to be the best at? 

*You know I respect you, tlf. You’re one of the most thoughtful and intelligent posters on this forum, but I can’t agree with the excuse making for Trump in the early days of this expanding crisis or that almost nothing he could have done then would have made a meaningful impact on the ultimate course of COVID-19 in the US. 

On January 26th we already had 5 confirmed cases of this spread from California to Arizona to Illinois.  Only five days earlier did the WHO confirm that the virus was transmissible from human to human. For weeks they’d echoed the Chinese state’s official line that it wasn’t, even though doctors in Wuhan had suspected since early December that it was. The CDC offered to send in a team to assist with the outbreak on January 6th, but were denied. 

Had Trump known all the facts we do now would he have acted seriously? I highly doubt it. It was already here before anyone had any sort of handle on it. Whoever had the job was going to be in the path of the whirlwind. If you want to ding him for his terrible messaging in the crisis I’m there with you, he’s actively unhelpful. If you want to hang the CDC’s failure to develop a reliable test that’s fine, the buck stops with him. But he’s not a laboratory scientist, and it’s not like those people weren’t trying either. Nor is recognizing that reality an excuse.

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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14 hours ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

On January 26th we already had 5 confirmed cases of this spread from California to Arizona to Illinois.  Only five days earlier did the WHO confirm that the virus was transmissible from human to human. For weeks they’d echoed the Chinese state’s official line that it wasn’t, even though doctors in Wuhan had suspected since early December that it was. The CDC offered to send in a team to assist with the outbreak on January 6th, but were denied. 

Had Trump known all the facts we do now would he have acted seriously? I highly doubt it. It was already here before anyone had any sort of handle on it. Whoever had the job was going to be in the path of the whirlwind. If you want to ding him for his terrible messaging in the crisis I’m there with you, he’s actively unhelpful. If you want to hang the CDC’s failure to develop a reliable test that’s fine, the buck stops with him. But he’s not a laboratory scientist, and it’s not like those people weren’t trying either. Nor is recognizing that reality an excuse.

I will attempt to not rehash in detail—and probably fail—what has already been covered by others on this page of the thread and redundantly in other threads, but my simplified position on Trump, the virus and the US is as follows. 

Trump is an awful crisis manager. He is awful at most things presidential, but it’s clear that a major crisis where knuckling under to reality and ceasing his constant pandering to his base and his ego...eff it, getting off track. He is only capable of reacting in ways that he believes will benefit him. Early on that meant downplaying the potential seriousness of the virus. Earlier on, that meant lopping programs, people and $$ from things that would have had us better prepared for this pandemic, something that experts knew was coming at some point and that previous administrations had at least made some attempts to build systems for dealing with. 

I agree that the virus would have arrived in the US regardless of who was president, but anybody not named Trump occupying the White House would have: reacted much sooner to the seriousness of the problem; had a different and likely better plan to deal with it earlier on in the developing crisis; not fed the partisan beast or the general belief of Americans of all political stripes that the most important fact of their existence is to do what they want when they want to do it within the confines of their personal means regardless of any threat against it or, particularly important in this case, a threat against others. At the very least attempts at flattening the curve would have started weeks earlier.

Also possible is that testing for the virus would resemble something closer to So Ko than what we have today. We certainly would have had a more coordinated response with our partners internationally. Conversely, perhaps a travel ban to China (and, later, Europe) are not instituted as early as they were by Trump and the number of infected entering the country is greater before such bans go into effect, leaving the current infection curve similar or worse than it is in our reality. 

We won’t ever know how things would be playing out with a different president and a different and certainly more competent administration, but it is hardly heretical or outrageous to believe that we would find ourselves doing a better—possibly a much better—job managing this pandemic with anybody but Trump in charge. 

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6 hours ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

On January 26th we already had 5 confirmed cases of this spread from California to Arizona to Illinois.  Only five days earlier did the WHO confirm that the virus was transmissible from human to human. For weeks they’d echoed the Chinese state’s official line that it wasn’t, even though doctors in Wuhan had suspected since early December that it was. The CDC offered to send in a team to assist with the outbreak on January 6th, but were denied. 

Had Trump known all the facts we do now would he have acted seriously? I highly doubt it. It was already here before anyone had any sort of handle on it. Whoever had the job was going to be in the path of the whirlwind. If you want to ding him for his terrible messaging in the crisis I’m there with you, he’s actively unhelpful. If you want to hang the CDC’s failure to develop a reliable test that’s fine, the buck stops with him. But he’s not a laboratory scientist, and it’s not like those people weren’t trying either. Nor is recognizing that reality an excuse.

My issue with Trump is the total lack of a contingency plan regarding tests.  Anyone with any business sense for something that critical has a +++++ing contingency plan.  I have worked in business in planning for many years.  A contingency plan for something that critical is mandatory and basic.  Trump claims he’s a top business person so how the hell did he miss something so basic!?

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On 3/20/2020 at 6:46 AM, BSUTOP25 said:

When this coronavirus news first hit, I believed it was going to pass fairly quickly and/or would be a similar ordeal as SARS or H1N1. I was making comments in the vein of trying to get people to calm the +++++ down and persist, that the world wasn’t going to end, etc.

Fast forward to today, the pandemic is worse than I thought it was going to be. And while it seems the global death rate is hovering around 1% and declining in certain countries (if we can believe the reports), that’s not the case everywhere. France, Italy, and Spain are in bad shape and nobody yet knows if their hospital systems are going to buckle under the growing needs of their people. The same could happen here in the US unless we are vigilant.

Added to the worry of illness, we’ve now reached the point of economic panic. A lot of people, probably even members of our MWCBoard community, are going to be financially hurt by this crisis. Some of us are going to lose investments, savings, jobs, businesses, and property. We could say something stupid like “it’s only money” but fact of the matter is that money matters, especially if you have dependents in your household.

With all this said, I wanted to sincerely apologize for having the wrong opinion of the coronavirus crisis early on. I hope you can find it in your heart to take me at my word and forgive me.

I hope we all make it through this unscathed. May we be a better nation and society as a result of this crisis. In the meanwhile, please reach out if you need anything — I’ll be at yer mom’s place.

Thank you,

BSUTOP25

I think we all did the same thing.. I’d heard the word pandemic my entire life but never witnessed one, assumed it would die out like every other fad virus.

 

But here I am contemplating using my socks without mates to wipe my ass as my toilet paper supply dwindles.

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13 hours ago, Posturedoc said:

I will attempt to not rehash in detail—and probably fail—what has already been covered by others on this page of the thread and redundantly in other threads, but my simplified position on Trump, the virus and the US is as follows. 

Trump is an awful crisis manager. He is awful at most things presidential, but it’s clear that a major crisis where knuckling under to reality and ceasing his constant pandering to his base and his ego...eff it, getting off track. He is only capable of reacting in ways that he believes will benefit him. Early on that meant downplaying the potential seriousness of the virus. Earlier on, that meant lopping programs, people and $$ from things that would have had us better prepared for this pandemic, something that experts knew was coming at some point and that previous administrations had at least made some attempts to build systems for dealing with. 

I agree that the virus would have arrived in the US regardless of who was president, but anybody not named Trump occupying the White House would have: reacted much sooner to the seriousness of the problem; had a different and likely better plan to deal with it earlier on in the developing crisis; not fed the partisan beast or the general belief of Americans of all political stripes that the most important fact of their existence is to do what they want when they want to do it within the confines of their personal means regardless of any threat against it or, particularly important in this case, a threat against others. At the very least attempts at flattening the curve would have started weeks earlier.

Also possible is that testing for the virus would resemble something closer to So Ko than what we have today. We certainly would have had a more coordinated response with our partners internationally. Conversely, perhaps a travel ban to China (and, later, Europe) are not instituted as early as they were by Trump and the number of infected entering the country is greater before such bans go into effect, leaving the current infection curve similar or worse than it is in our reality. 

We won’t ever know how things would be playing out with a different president and a different and certainly more competent administration, but it is hardly heretical or outrageous to believe that we would find ourselves doing a better—possibly a much better—job managing this pandemic with anybody but Trump in charge. 

We’re going to have to disagree on this. The country we lived in two months ago was not willing to take the extreme measures South Korea did. Hell, in six months we still might not be willing. It wasn’t just testing. South Korea used the surveillance state to monitor individuals movements and forced the infected into isolation in designated government buildings. That would never, ever be tolerated in America a month ago, when the number of cases were miniscule. It would have looked totalitarian because it is, I don’t care who the President was. George Bush with an approval rating of near 90% post 9/11 couldn’t get the country to understand the necessity for it, there is no way anyone would have tolerated Donald Trump trying to enforce such a policy with such a seemingly small footprint at that point. 

South Koreans bought into it and immediately understood the need for social distancing. Americans didn’t and were never going to until a trauma like what we face up and slapped us. The country will get through this, and the economic hard times to follow. But it will be a different country afterward. In a future outbreak mitigation might be possible. The America we used to live in a few short weeks ago, though, we weren’t going to react to this. It looks much the same for a lot of the West.

 

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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