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toonkee

Coronavirus Politics

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1 hour ago, BSUTOP25 said:

That’s exactly what I’m saying. But the predicted second wave is supposed to hit by October/December ... right? Or do I have that wrong?

That is when the curve is expected to start picking up again..  Late fall early winter.  

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57 minutes ago, BSUTOP25 said:

Okay, I see your point re time frame. I was looking at it from the standpoint that we should have more tests and data sharing systems by the end of the year so we could observe the number of new infections and fatalities as they’re logged. 

I simply want Sweden’s approach to be the right one because it would demonstrate that herd immunity is effective for the healthier bell curve of the population - that the body can adapt and create antibodies that are effective at fighting and preventing recurrence. I would think everyone would want that to be the case...? It would be good news for all of us in the long-term.

Look, I’m not cheering this from a teams and shit angle. I am simply hopeful that there is a natural response from the body. If that’s the case, we can design policies and procedures that protect the most vulnerable (elderly, obese, immune compromised, etc.) while making sure the bulk of society keeps the lights on. All the while, continue to work on effective treatment therapies and hopefully come up with a vaccine that can be adapted to mutations. 

I do not think there is anything wrong with this. It will be interesting to keep an eye on.

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2 hours ago, BSUTOP25 said:

I guess I’m just looking at it as an a hope that the body is able to produce antibodies and immunity — and a way to navigate the delicate balance of societal health and economic resilience. If this Swedish gamble pays off, we can look at it as a win for everyone. If Sweden is successful, I wouldn’t come back to this thread and do a doucher move like posting “Ha, I told you so.” 

It would be nice if Sweden could make it work in their culture. It  would mean there are working options

But Americans are a whole different breed.

This is the news from Stillwater, OK. People get threatening over having restrictions relaxed a little but being asked to wear a mask in public.

 

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21 minutes ago, FresnoFacts said:

It would be nice if Sweden could make it work in their culture. It  would mean there are working options

But Americans are a whole different breed.

This is the news from Stillwater, OK. People get threatening over having restrictions relaxed a little but being asked to wear a mask in public.

 

Sorry man, it seems we’re on two different frequencies here. I’ll try and explain it this way — Sweden is testing the herd immunity approach by keeping schools, shops, restaurants, bars, and other businesses open. They’re only asking people isolate if they have immune/health issues. About the only widespread restrictions are banning gatherings over 50 people and recommending a 2m distancing guideline.

This has nothing to do with Americans or compliance on wearing masks — which are not required in Sweden anyway.  The Swedes are gambling that a large percentage of their healthy working population will get exposed but show little to no symptoms while simultaneously attempting to bolster their healthcare infrastructure to care for the elderly and those with underlying health conditions. Yes, it’s a gamble or risk but there is some initial data showing that victims are not suffering a recurrence, suggesting there could be antibody immunity.

Although very early, if that turns out to be true, we should all be ecstatic and Sweden will be in very good position when the projected second wave hits. 

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54 minutes ago, FresnoFacts said:

It would be nice if Sweden could make it work in their culture. It  would mean there are working options

But Americans are a whole different breed.

This is the news from Stillwater, OK. People get threatening over having restrictions relaxed a little but being asked to wear a mask in public.

 

 

You are missing his point entirely.  His point is that Sweeden making it work would bring scientific data to the table regarding the transmission rates in second and third waves.  Right now we know what their transmission rates are, it does not matter who we are comparing it to.  We know what THEIRS are.  And they are not low.  What this will provide is information on how herd immunity may impact spread.  As we will be comparing it to THEIR RO in the first wave.  If they show an RO that is statistically lower in their nation between waves compared to the rest of the world, we will have valuable data.

Not sure why this is hard to grasp and I strongly disagree their policies would work here.  But Top25's point is that it would provide very significant information as to the nature of the virus if their second wave has statistically less impact in comparison to their first wave than other nations.  It would provide us another data point.  That is all he is saying.  He is not saying they are doing it right and we are doing it wrong.

 

@BSUTOP25 let me know if I put words in your mouth.

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3 minutes ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

 

You are missing his point entirely.  His point is that Sweeden making it work would bring scientific data to the table regarding the transmission rates in second and third waves.  Right now we now what their transmission rates are, it does not matter who we are comparing it to.  We know what THEIRS are.  And they are not low.  What this will provide is information on how herd immunity may impact spread.  As we will be comparing it to THEIR RO in the first wave.  If they show an RO that is statistically lower in their nation between waves compared to the rest of the world, we will have valuable data.

Not sure why this is hard to grasp and I strongly disagree their policies would work here.  But Top25's point is that it would provide very significant information as to the nature of the virus if their second wave has statistically less impact in comparison to their first wave than other nations.  It would provide us another data point.  That is all he is saying.  He is not saying they are doing it right and we are doing it wrong.

 

@BSUTOP25 let me know if I put words in your mouth.

That’s pretty much it, thank you for articulating it better. I will add that I do want them to be right because I believe it would be beneficial for all of us in the long run. This isn’t the same as proclaiming that they are right and we are wrong. 

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8 minutes ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

 

You are missing his point entirely.  His point is that Sweeden making it work would bring scientific data to the table regarding the transmission rates in second and third waves.  Right now we now what their transmission rates are, it does not matter who we are comparing it to.  We know what THEIRS are.  And they are not low.  What this will provide is information on how herd immunity may impact spread.  As we will be comparing it to THEIR RO in the first wave.  If they show an RO that is statistically lower in their nation between waves compared to the rest of the world, we will have valuable data.

Not sure why this is hard to grasp and I strongly disagree their policies would work here.  But Top25's point is that it would provide very significant information as to the nature of the virus if their second wave has statistically less impact in comparison to their first wave than other nations.  It would provide us another data point.  That is all he is saying.  He is not saying they are doing it right and we are doing it wrong.

 

@BSUTOP25 let me know if I put words in your mouth.

What can I say, after a decade plus of posting together and thousands of personal messages, I speak Top25 pretty well.  And honestly, it is a privilege.  

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8 minutes ago, BSUTOP25 said:

That’s pretty much it, thank you for articulating it better. I will add that I do want them to be right because I believe it would be beneficial for all of us in the long run. This isn’t the same as proclaiming that they are right and we are wrong. 

That is fine.

Maybe you are not one, and I apologize if you are not. But too many people I talk to on boards or IRL lately keep trying to extrapolate Sweden to the US. 

There are differences that people do not consider about what might work in Sweden might not have worked here. Mandatory paid sick time, cultural behavior, etc are some. Heck even the high risk factors like a BMI over 30 are different (Sweden is only 16% of the population vs 40% in the US).

 

 

 

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20 minutes ago, FresnoFacts said:

That is fine.

Maybe you are not one, and I apologize if you are not. But too many people I talk to on boards or IRL lately keep trying to extrapolate Sweden to the US. 

There are differences that people do not consider about what might work in Sweden might not have worked here. Mandatory paid sick time, cultural behavior, etc are some. Heck even the high risk factors like a BMI over 30 are different (Sweden is only 16% of the population vs 40% in the US).

 

 

 

I think what you are missing is the fact Top25 knows more about Sweeden than you could ever hope to.  You are not telling him something he does not know.  He has family and friends in that part of the world.  He has lived in Scandinavia for a significant portion of time.  Telling a man who knows that culture on a personal level more than you ever could, seems super condescending.   

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5 hours ago, FresnoFacts said:

The only thing is you also have to model/interpret the differences in countries and cultural behavior.

This article this morning did a good job of laying out some of the differences between Sweden and the US. Just one excerpt:

If Americans had more of the Swedish behavior and government support network mentioned then it would be a close analysis. But otherwise you have to do some massaging of the differences in the comparisons to see if it would worked here.

 

OK, maybe I'm reading this wrong, but if I'm not then I'm calling horseshit.

If Americans were more compliant and less resistant to government overreach we could be trusted to do the right thing and wouldn't have to be locked up?  Please correct my (hopefully) misunderstanding of your position.

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14 hours ago, toonkee said:

Trumpers gonna Trumper.

Our political left is much more likely to politicize the virus by supporting govt over reach.  Its obvious by now that we should be protecting the vulnerable and not squashing everyone's freedoms.  Every part of our country is different....county to county..

Govt has also clearly forgotten the "flatten the curve" strategy and now wants to keep the economy shut down.   We will all be exposed eventually, life goes on.  Our govt loves this control and doesnt want to let go, we dont hear about "flatten the curve" goals from the left anymore, just doom and gloom in the future. 

Govt not allowing folks to take care of themselves is appalling and we are tired of it, we know its not about the virus anymore.

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11 hours ago, FresnoFacts said:

That is fine.

Maybe you are not one, and I apologize if you are not. But too many people I talk to on boards or IRL lately keep trying to extrapolate Sweden to the US. 

There are differences that people do not consider about what might work in Sweden might not have worked here. Mandatory paid sick time, cultural behavior, etc are some. Heck even the high risk factors like a BMI over 30 are different (Sweden is only 16% of the population vs 40% in the US).

I honestly don't see why you're insisting on arguing at this point. I'm talking about herd immunity and why it would be great if it pans out .. and already wrote about isolating vulnerable people with underlying health conditions.  

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13 hours ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

I think what you are missing is the fact Top25 knows more about Sweeden than you could ever hope to.  You are not telling him something he does not know.  He has family and friends in that part of the world.  He has lived in Scandinavia for a significant portion of time.  Telling a man who knows that culture on a personal level more than you ever could, seems super condescending.   

I think what you’re missing is that many on this board point to Sweden as the model while instigating rebellious behavior that wouldn’t occur in Sweden.   @BSUTOP25 and @FresnoFacts are making different points that can both be true.   Sweden can provide excellent data on herd immunity while also instituting a model we could never make work here because we have Knuckleheads protesting wearing a mask in a Cancer center for Christsake.   
 

The damage Trump has done to this society by teaching the least informed segment of our society to not trust the media generally is incalculable.  These people don’t read and can’t distinguish pseudoscience from real science but they can grab a gun a protest.   Distrustful, uninformed and angry is not a good combination for the country.   So what does this group do?   They point to Sweden which is everything they are not and a social economic model they routinely condemn :waiting:

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2020-05-02/sweden-coronavirus-voluntary-strategy

 

 

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2 hours ago, BSUTOP25 said:

I honestly don't see why you're insisting on arguing at this point. I'm talking about herd immunity and why it would be great if it pans out .. and already wrote about isolating vulnerable people with underlying health conditions.  

I don’t think his point is to you directly.  His point is to all the other’s who will read it and say see we should do what Sweden does.  

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14 minutes ago, sactowndog said:

I think what you’re missing is that many on this board point to Sweden as the model while instigating rebellious behavior that wouldn’t occur in Sweden.   @BSUTOP25 and @FresnoFacts are making different points that can both be true.   Sweden can provide excellent data on herd immunity while also instituting a model we could never make work here because we have Knuckleheads protesting wearing a mask in a Cancer center for Christsake.   
 

The damage Trump has done to this society by teaching the least informed segment of our society to not trust the media generally is incalculable.  These people don’t read and can’t distinguish pseudoscience from real science but they can grab a gun a protest.   Distrustful, uninformed and angry is not a good combination for the country.   So what does this group do?   They point to Sweden which is everything they are not and a social economic model they routinely condemn :waiting:

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2020-05-02/sweden-coronavirus-voluntary-strategy

 

 

No, I am not missing anything.  FresnoFacts is arguing an argument that was not being made.  That simple.  But hey, reading comprehension is not for everybody.  

And telling a man who has lived in that part of the world and knows it like the back of his hand what it is "really" like, smacks of condescension.  That is also a fact.

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6 minutes ago, sactowndog said:

I think what you’re missing is that many on this board point to Sweden as the model while instigating rebellious behavior that wouldn’t occur in Sweden.   @BSUTOP25 and @FresnoFacts are making different points that can both be true.   Sweden can provide excellent data on herd immunity while also instituting a model we could never make work here because we have Knuckleheads protesting wearing a mask in a Cancer center for Christsake.   
 

The damage Trump has done to this society by teaching the least informed segment of our society to not trust the media generally is incalculable.  These people don’t read and can’t distinguish pseudoscience from real science but they can grab a gun a protest.   Distrustful, uninformed and angry is not a good combination for the country.   So what does this group do?   They point to Sweden which is everything they are not and a social economic model they routinely condemn :waiting:

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2020-05-02/sweden-coronavirus-voluntary-strategy

Don’t give Trump that kind of credit, the media did that on their own. After all it was they who provided him billions of dollars in free advertisement to get him where he is now.

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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2 minutes ago, sactowndog said:

I don’t think his point is to you directly.  His point is to all the other’s who will read it and say see we should do what Sweden does.  

I never once said we should do exactly what Sweden has done, and I haven’t seen to many others saying that either. And for those that were, address them and not me. I thought I made it clear, multiple times, that I’m hopeful herd immunity will prove effective the next time this virus comes around. The world needed an A/B test and Sweden is providing it for us.

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