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Corona Virus - How bad is it going to be?

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36 minutes ago, retrofade said:

The Trump Administration has given up.

 

 

We’re not going to send in police/troops to enforce measures. That’s not something Americans are willing to stomach.

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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10 minutes ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

We’re not going to send in police/troops to enforce measures. That’s not something Americans are willing to stomach.

Who exactly is calling for that, and what does it have to do with the Trump Administration straight up saying that t here's no point in trying to prevent the spread?

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13 minutes ago, retrofade said:

Who exactly is calling for that, and what does it have to do with the Trump Administration straight up saying that t here's no point in trying to prevent the spread?

How do you prevent the spread without doing that? You can’t stop people from congregating in riots, protests, parties, family gatherings otherwise. This is the fundamental flaw in this criticism, and the fact that nobody leveling it calls for it means they shouldn’t be taken seriously.

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We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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2 minutes ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

How do you prevent the spread without doing that? You can’t stop people from congregating in riots, protests, parties, family gatherings otherwise. This is the fundamental flaw in this criticism, and the fact that nobody leveling it calls for it means they shouldn’t be taken seriously.

If we can’t even appeal for personal responsibility, nor reasonably expect people to take personal responsibility, then what exactly is the point of conservatism?

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On 10/23/2020 at 9:49 AM, NorCalCoug said:

Yeah, looks like a BLM protest...  only red hats.

BLM protests are outside and virtually everyone has a mask. Also less white and a lot less fat. 

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Thay Haif Said: Quhat Say Thay? Lat Thame Say

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Just now, NVGiant said:

If we can’t even appeal for personal responsibility, nor reasonably expect people to take personal responsibility, then what exactly is the point of conservatism?

Lol you can try. But Americans aren’t going to listen. That went out the window when protesting racism became less dangerous than the virus. People aren’t going back to lockdowns. It’s a fantasy, completely ignoring the reality since June. Controlling it is over. Look at Europe.

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We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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31 minutes ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

Lol you can try. But Americans aren’t going to listen. That went out the window when protesting racism became less dangerous than the virus. People aren’t going back to lockdowns. It’s a fantasy, completely ignoring the reality since June. Controlling it is over. Look at Europe.

Nobody is calling for lockdowns and the protestors weren’t where personal responsibility went out the window, though they’ve certainly been irresponsible, too. But I sit here in Oregon, where we don’t have lockdowns and our Portland citizens still conduct nightly protests riots downtown traffic redirections, and wonder why our numbers are so much lower. It’s not purely luck.

But all of that said, to Retro’s point, a good number of people still believe this is all a hoax, and our leadership is professing personal irresponsibility. Now we can’t even stay home from work when infected apparently. It’s nuts. So yeah, our leadership has given up, just as @retrofadesaid. 

And back to my point, if we can’t even get conservatives to make a case for personal responsibility, what is the point of conservatism? What exactly does it offer?

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5 minutes ago, NVGiant said:

But all of that said, to Retro’s point, a good number of people still believe this is all a hoax, and our leadership is professing personal irresponsibility. Now we can’t even stay home from work when infected apparently. It’s nuts. So yeah, our leadership has given up, just as @retrofadesaid. 

And back to my point, if we can’t even get conservatives to make a case for personal responsibility, what is the point of conservatism? What exactly does it offer?

Back in March, Trump labeled himself a "wartime president" due to the virus. That concept disappeared very quickly. When was the last time he spoke of himself that way when it comes to coronavirus.

At the time, I thought he would lead Americans to temporarily make some personal sacrifice and show personal responsibility. But no.

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1 hour ago, NVGiant said:

Nobody is calling for lockdowns and the protestors weren’t where personal responsibility went out the window, though they’ve certainly been irresponsible, too. But I sit here in Oregon, where we don’t have lockdowns and our Portland citizens still conduct nightly protests riots downtown traffic redirections, and wonder why our numbers are so much lower. It’s not purely luck.

But all of that said, to Retro’s point, a good number of people still believe this is all a hoax, and our leadership is professing personal irresponsibility. Now we can’t even stay home from work when infected apparently. It’s nuts. So yeah, our leadership has given up, just as @retrofadesaid. 

And back to my point, if we can’t even get conservatives to make a case for personal responsibility, what is the point of conservatism? What exactly does it offer?

If you want to make Trump the end all of conservatism, then that’s on you to answer. The fact is I called for Draconian measures at the outset of this, against  my own ideological proclivities, to get control of this thing. I was called hysterical, maybe rightly so. Americans were never going to stand for that. And as you say, Oregon’s lack of severity so far is owed to luck more than personal responsibility.

You want to talk about hoaxes. You yourself said +++++ anybody who would downplay the prospect of an early vaccine for political purposes. Well now you’ve got the VP nominee and the governor of New York prominently saying don’t trust any vaccine approved by the administration. As if Trump himself is in the basement of the White House with a meth lab full of beakers and Bunsen burners cooking the thing up himself.

There is a lot to criticize our leadership on. Messaging, downplaying, misinformation, etc...and Trump needs to go. But the idea someone else is going to control the spread is flat out unserious bullshit. No, Joe Biden mandating masks while driving on the interstate isn’t going to do it. Controlling the spread is over. It’s done and out there everywhere. Maybe it was never possible. People aren’t going to listen anymore, and everyone involved has no one to blame but themselves for this.

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We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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Just now, toonkee said:

@NVGiant @thelawlorfaithful

If I may butt in...

I fully agree that mandating and ordering was never the best strategy. The best strategy is and was to have leadership of all stripes work to get us all on-board to do the right things for each other.  

 

Then again comrade, what would the point of liberalism be?

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We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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1 minute ago, toonkee said:

Boom

You know what expert it really would have helped when Trump was doing his Rona Rally press conferences? A good psychologist. Epidemiologists don’t have the answers to everything this entails.

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We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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24 minutes ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

If you want to make Trump the end all of conservatism, then that’s on you to answer. The fact is I called for Draconian measures at the outset of this, against  my own ideological proclivities, to get control of this thing. I was called hysterical, maybe rightly so. Americans were never going to stand for that. And as you say, Oregon’s lack of severity so far is owed to luck more than personal responsibility.

You want to talk about hoaxes. You yourself said +++++ anybody who would downplay the prospect of an early vaccine for political purposes. Well now you’ve got the VP nominee and the governor of New York prominently saying don’t trust any vaccine approved by the administration. As if Trump himself is in the basement of the White House with a meth lab full of beakers and Bunsen burners cooking the thing up himself.

There is a lot to criticize our leadership on. Messaging, downplaying, misinformation, etc...and Trump needs to go. But the idea someone else is going to control the spread is flat out unserious bullshit. No, Joe Biden mandating masks while driving on the interstate isn’t going to do it. Controlling the spread is over. It’s done and out there everywhere. Maybe it was never possible. People aren’t going to listen anymore, and everyone involved has no one to blame but themselves for this.

I don’t know who the end all be all of conservatism should be. I don’t even know what it believes in other than lower taxes and that all liberals are commies. I’m looking at the context of the conversation you just had with Retro. I know you’re no Trump guy. But when I see the White House chief of staff say a staff member who is sick is going to continue to work, and that is met with “what ya gonna do?”, by people who have told me for 40 years that all we need to do is take more responsibility for our own behavior, I have to wonder what is the point of the philosophy if they are unwilling to hold irresponsibility to account.

I don’t know. Liberal politics are broken, too. But this seems like a great time for conservatives to be telling everyone that we need to do what we can personally. And if you can’t do little things like stay away from the White House if you’re sick, F you. 

 

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5 hours ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

How do you prevent the spread without doing that? You can’t stop people from congregating in riots, protests, parties, family gatherings otherwise. This is the fundamental flaw in this criticism, and the fact that nobody leveling it calls for it means they shouldn’t be taken seriously.

I haven't read the remainder of the thread, which I assume is good since it's between people who know how to read. 

But the fundamental flaw in your argument here is that the administration has actively undermined any holistic effort to prevent the spread by turning the behavioral interventions that can be taken at the local and individual level (wear masks, try and stay out of big crowds) into partisan political issues tied to people's feelings about the president. 

I think a reasonable person can say that an argument that operates from the assumption that "people won't do that" is undermined when the president tells the world "people shouldn't do that" and apx. 40 % of the country follows that advice because it bums out the libs. You should give the people a chance to do the thing before forcing them to do the thing. Giving them a chance to do the thing involves telling them they should do the thing. We haven't even gotten there yet as a country. 

I can say that as someone who has been making the argument you're making here from the beginning.  It's all very frustrating. 

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Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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4 hours ago, NVGiant said:

our leadership has given up,

No, this was the plan from the beginning for the leadership of the federal executive branch. 

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Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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2 hours ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

If you want to make Trump the end all of conservatism

That ship has sailed, friend. 

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Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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