TheSanDiegan Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 10 hours ago, sactowndog said: You would enjoy the link I posted. I wonder if you see any math errors in the modeling. https://analytica.com/adjusting-the-santa-clara-county-antibody-prevalence-results-for-self-selection-bias/ Awesome link - thanks man. This is why peer reviews are so critical (and why the findings of any papers published on medrxiv awaiting peer review should be approached with caution). Plus, as a bonus, we get to laugh at Stanford - "huge and insurmountable" indeed. Here's that paper distilled to a spreadsheet, where o(C) represents the adjusted (true) prevalence (edited with more complete table): Using the Stanford study's high-end of the estimated range of prevalence (p), the estimated true prevalence (adjusted for the Bayesian interference) is as shown, where L represents the (greater) likelihood that someone who thinks they are/have been sick self-selecting over someone who does not. So, for instance, if someone who thought they were sick was 5x more likely to respond to the Facebook ad than someone who was not sick, the high end of the prevalence estimate drops from 4.16% to just .8681%. This comes with the assumption that there was indeed self-selection bias, which is something the Stanford study failed to account for. It will be interesting to see how the forthcoming LA County random testing compares. Awesome link man. Thanks again. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smltwnrckr Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 I watched a segment yesterday on some dumb news channel that was focused on how I should be personally scared as a healthy 30-something, but instead it infuriated me. One of the young healthy men who died in the segment was forced to die alone because his wife wasn't allowed to be with him because of the quarantine. I hope that isn't as widespread as it seem it is in the US. That's +++++ing outrageous. Quote Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleepingGiantFan Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 On 4/16/2020 at 3:56 PM, happycamper said: I mean... some states are already downward trajectory The death rate for those confirmed to have COVID-19 in California is currently 3.5%. An article in today's L.A. Times article about a Bay Area study of blood test antibody or sereolgy tests suggests the number of people who have developed the disease could be 10 times higher than shown in cheek swabs. In other words, that a massive amount of people have been exposed to the virus who have exhibited symptoms sufficiently minor that they haven't needed hospitalization. And this article linked by Joe above speaks volumes: https://www.wsj.com/articles/new-data-suggest-the-coronavirus-isnt-as-deadly-as-we-thought-11587155298?mod=hp_opin_pos_1 As modified by this: https://analytica.com/adjusting-the-santa-clara-county-antibody-prevalence-results-for-self-selection-bias/ The point is, this disease is dangerous but the danger has been overblown in the media. (Sorry fellow leftists but that's how I feel at least.) If you are elderly or have one of the identified medical conditions which makes it difficult for your body to fight off the virus, COVID-19 is very dangerous. However, if you're not one of the small percentage of the population in those categories, statistically speaking, it does not appear to be. So particuarly since it's always been anticipated that the chances of spreading the disease will diminish when the weather gets warm, it seems to me that in the states you refer to, people not in a problematic group should begin returning to work by mid-May. Quote Boom goes the dynamite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSUTOP25 Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 Didn’t think things could get worse? Well, hold my flat beer: https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/beer-may-lose-its-fizz-as-co2-supplies-go-flat-during-pandemic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sactowndog Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 49 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said: I watched a segment yesterday on some dumb news channel that was focused on how I should be personally scared as a healthy 30-something, but instead it infuriated me. One of the young healthy men who died in the segment was forced to die alone because his wife wasn't allowed to be with him because of the quarantine. I hope that isn't as widespread as it seem it is in the US. That's +++++ing outrageous. Well personally if I have Covid and I’m contagious I don’t want my wife with 5 miles of me. No reason my kids should lose both parents to Covid. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sactowndog Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 2 hours ago, TheSanDiegan said: Awesome link - thanks man. This is why peer reviews are so critical (and why the findings of any papers published on medrxiv awaiting peer review should be approached with caution). Plus, as a bonus, we get to laugh at Stanford - "huge and insurmountable" indeed. Here's that paper distilled to a spreadsheet, where o(C) represents the adjusted (true) prevalence: Using the Stanford study's high-end of the estimated range of prevalence (p), the estimated true prevalence (adjusted for the Bayesian interference) is as shown, where L represents the (greater) likelihood that someone who thinks they are/have been sick self-selecting over someone who does not. So, for instance, if someone who thought they were sick was 5x more likely to respond to the Facebook ad than someone who was not sick, the high end of the prevalence estimate drops from 4.16% to just .8681%. This comes with the assumption that there was indeed self-selection bias, which is something the Stanford study failed to account for. It will be interesting to see how the forthcoming LA County random testing compares. Awesome link man. Thanks again. Yeah given the absence of available test resources and no control method you have to assume a high level of self selection bias exists. The article cites one such person searching for the ad. I know another person in Santa Clara who thought he was exposed desperately looking to be tested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smltwnrckr Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 8 minutes ago, sactowndog said: Well personally if I have Covid and I’m contagious I don’t want my wife with 5 miles of me. No reason my kids should lose both parents to Covid. Good for you. You should be able to make those choices for yourself. If my wife was dying of covid, I almost certainly would have it too. If they forced her to die alone to protect her low-risk husband, I'd be giving it to people in the local jail. Death rituals are one of the universal aspects of the human experience. The state or some other authority forcing people to die without them is stripping death of its humanity. It's more grotesque than the death itself. 3 2 Quote Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sactowndog Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 43 minutes ago, SleepingGiantFan said: The death rate for those confirmed to have COVID-19 in California is currently 3.5%. An article in today's L.A. Times article about a Bay Area study of blood test antibody or sereolgy tests suggests the number of people who have developed the disease could be 10 times higher than shown in cheek swabs. In other words, that a massive amount of people have been exposed to the virus who have exhibited symptoms sufficiently minor that they haven't needed hospitalization. And this article linked by Joe above speaks volumes: https://www.wsj.com/articles/new-data-suggest-the-coronavirus-isnt-as-deadly-as-we-thought-11587155298?mod=hp_opin_pos_1 As modified by this: https://analytica.com/adjusting-the-santa-clara-county-antibody-prevalence-results-for-self-selection-bias/ The point is, this disease is dangerous but the danger has been overblown in the media. (Sorry fellow leftists but that's how I feel at least.) If you are elderly or have one of the identified medical conditions which makes it difficult for your body to fight off the virus, COVID-19 is very dangerous. However, if you're not one of the small percentage of the population in those categories, statistically speaking, it does not appear to be. So particuarly since it's always been anticipated that the chances of spreading the disease will diminish when the weather gets warm, it seems to me that in the states you refer to, people not in a problematic group should begin returning to work by mid-May. Is the rate 3.5%. Almost certainly not. Is the rate as low as the Wall Street Journal report? Only if you believe no self-selection bias occurred. Most likely the Covid death rate, if you account for self selection bias, lies between 1-2%. This rate is 10 x 20% more deadly than the flu and the Covid RO factor is much higher. The problem is the Stanford study is pretty bad science. Even a marketing MBA like me could look at it and go “wait a minute”. I am most interested who funded this study and why Stanford allowed it to be conducted with such a rookie mistake. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happycamper Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 36 minutes ago, BSUTOP25 said: Didn’t think things could get worse? Well, hold my flat beer: https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/beer-may-lose-its-fizz-as-co2-supplies-go-flat-during-pandemic Just drink real ale. New belgium's trippel has a live yeast culture. @Brew_Pokeany live bottle recommendations, especially for the northwest? 3 Quote Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halfmanhalfbronco Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 5 hours ago, TheSanDiegan said: It was interesting to read that 22-24% of all deaths each year in this country occur in nursing homes. Are we sure this virus is Asian? Because tbh it seems lazy to go for the low hanging fruit like that. Now give me a good, old-fashioned Spanish flu, one that wasn't afraid to go after the young and healthy... it seems you just don't see that kind of work ethic in a virus any more. Make pathogens great again! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NevadaFan Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 27 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said: Good for you. You should be able to make those choices for yourself. If my wife was dying of covid, I almost certainly would have it too. If they forced her to die alone to protect her low-risk husband, I'd be giving it to people in the local jail. Death rituals are one of the universal aspects of the human experience. The state or some other authority forcing people to die without them is stripping death of its humanity. It's more grotesque than the death itself. It is a thing. Someone at the company I work for lost her grandmother to Covid last week and her family watched her pass via FaceTime with the help of a nurse at the hospital. It’s an horrible death from what I understand. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSanDiegan Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 38 minutes ago, sactowndog said: Yeah given the absence of available test resources and no control method you have to assume a high level of self selection bias exists. The article cites one such person searching for the ad. I know another person in Santa Clara who thought he was exposed desperately looking to be tested. I think they could have also captured this information at the point of testing - simply ask respondents if they believe they are, or have been, infected with the virus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSanDiegan Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 54 minutes ago, BSUTOP25 said: Didn’t think things could get worse? Well, hold my flat beer: https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/beer-may-lose-its-fizz-as-co2-supplies-go-flat-during-pandemic That's gotta be one of the seven signs. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sactowndog Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 1 minute ago, TheSanDiegan said: I think they could have also captured this information at the point of testing - simply ask respondents if they believe they are, or have been, infected with the virus. Sure. Lots of means to account for it. That fact is what makes it so odd that an organization of Stanford’s reputation would make such a rookie mistake. LA County has a study coming out Monday that has a much more random selection method. It will be interesting to see those results. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRam Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 1 hour ago, BSUTOP25 said: Didn’t think things could get worse? Well, hold my flat beer: https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/beer-may-lose-its-fizz-as-co2-supplies-go-flat-during-pandemic It’s a good thing you are taking a break from drinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSUTOP25 Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 16 minutes ago, HRam said: It’s a good thing you are taking a break from drinking. Only until June. +++++ing LDL. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSUTOP25 Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSUTOP25 Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NVGiant Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 4 hours ago, BSUTOP25 said: Didn’t think things could get worse? Well, hold my flat beer: https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/beer-may-lose-its-fizz-as-co2-supplies-go-flat-during-pandemic Looks like it’s stouts and porters from here on out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CV147 Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...