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Corona Virus - How bad is it going to be?

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Just now, smltwnrckr said:

Civil liberties generally expanded during the 20th century overall. The relationship between that trend and epidemics is probably complicated. 

Agreed. 

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14 minutes ago, NVGiant said:

And we still had a half century left before segregation ended, the 19th amendment was two years away, the crest of the labor movement had not yet been reached, etc. So would you say that we were a more free nation after 1918, or less free? From what I hear, we're worried that this shutdown will lead to a permanent police state. But isn't this proof that there really isn't a strong causation between emergency measures in a pandemic and future freedom?

And we are currently in a police state... heading into more of one for the forseeable future. We should recognize that and demand its end at some point. 

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Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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2 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

Civil liberties generally expanded during the 20th century overall. The relationship between that trend and epidemics is probably complicated. 

Yes but it's hard to find any link between emergency measures and a permanent loss of civil liberties.

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13 minutes ago, renoskier said:

Yes but it's hard to find any link between emergency measures and a permanent loss of civil liberties.

Patriot Act says hi

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thelawlorfaithful, on 31 Dec 2012 - 04:01 AM, said:One of the rules I live by: never underestimate a man in a dandy looking sweater

 

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This is shocking I tell you!  Absolutely shocking 

 

thelawlorfaithful, on 31 Dec 2012 - 04:01 AM, said:One of the rules I live by: never underestimate a man in a dandy looking sweater

 

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23 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

And we are currently in a police state... heading into more of one for the forseeable future. We should recognize that and demand its end at some point. 

I guess whether we are in a police state depends somewhat on what state you live in. You'd agree that this is a balance, right? That the government's mandate to protect the people and the preservation of people's rights are inevitably going to be at odds at all times, but particularly during a crisis such as this. And temporary curtailment of some rights is inevitable and in many cases warranted in a crisis such as this. 

I will say I am worried about some of the lingering affects of these policies. We saw after 9/11 what can happen when we let policies set during an emergency continue to linger. But I will tell you that while my concern is genuine, I am less worried about permanent loss of rights than I was 20 years ago for one key reason. One of the most significant issues in the post-9/11 world has been that the "War on terror" is never-ending. Policies and laws, namely the Patriot Act, continue today in perpetuity because there has never been a conceivable end to the War on Terror, so its continuation could always be justified by some and accepted by others. Even today, any argument that the Patriot Act's time has passed is inevitably countered with the "But we have to keep America safe" argument. 

This will have a more defined ending. And I believe Americans will better know when to push back. Or at least, I hope that is the case.

All that said, I reserve my right to change my opinion based on circumstances that change daily.

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No ethos or political persuasion is complete in it's extreme form. They are all in-theory fantasies that dissolve with with even minor criticism. We accept this with socialism and communism but for some reason many of us have a harder time accepting the that real liberty is just as impossible, as every action we take affects others.

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1 hour ago, smltwnrckr said:

That’s some scary shit. This is how we ended up with the phucking Patriot Act and other nefarious bullshit. The majority of Americans are stupid, and have no issue being herded like sheep. Reading that article made me angry and sad. I don’t understand the willingness to give up liberty.

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10 minutes ago, toonkee said:

No ethos or political persuasion is complete in it's extreme form. They are all in-theory fantasies that dissolve with with even minor criticism. We accept this with socialism and communism but for some reason many of us have a harder time accepting the that real liberty is just as impossible, as every action we take affects others.

Enlighten us on your theory that real liberty is impossible to attain. And even if it somehow is impossible, I believe we as a people have an obligation to pursue it rather than concede it.

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12 minutes ago, sean327 said:

Enlighten us on your theory that real liberty is impossible to attain. And even if it somehow is impossible, I believe we as a people have an obligation to pursue it rather than concede it.

You would agree that we need certain laws, right? I think what he meant was "absolute liberty" more than real liberty.

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2 minutes ago, NVGiant said:

You would agree that we need certain laws, right? 

Will you agree that we have too many laws, and that many of them restrict freedom rather than encourage it or support it?

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1 hour ago, mugtang said:

Patriot Act says hi

Since the patriot act we also have had drug legalization, marriage equality, the end of DADT, more criminal voting rights, and a restriction of civil asset forfeiture. NV Giant makes a good point that crises don't happen in a vacuum. Crises are always going to happen and have always happened; that doesn't stop the opening up of society. 

 

14 minutes ago, sean327 said:

Enlighten us on your theory that real liberty is impossible to attain. And even if it somehow is impossible, I believe we as a people have an obligation to pursue it rather than concede it.

Huh? It's simple. In a state of nature a stronger man can impose total slavery on weaker men. Three men can impose slavery on two. Hence we give up liberty to government in exchange for more protection than we pay in return. This is like... Locke and Hobbes stuff

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Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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A perspective from an Italian doctor, who is believed to have treated Italy's Patient 1:

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/this-looks-like-operating-in-a-war-zone-italian-doctor-who-treated-italys-patient-1-battles-to-save-lives-from-coronavirus-2020-04-01?siteid=yhoof2&yptr=yahoo

We all know how unbelievably noble/brave/critical our health-responders have been during this Covid-19 outbreak.  Just reading this quote...

“When even your face is covered with a mask and a visor, you are not able to eat, drink or even go to the toilet for several hours. Actually even hunger and thirst are set aside,” he said, adding that everyone is exhausted. “We lose almost 4 pounds every day after every shift.

.. tells you how physically demanding the job in hospitals has been.  This says nothing of the mental/emotional toll that medical staff have undoubtedly also been subject to, and on a daily basis. Physically, for many workers I imagine it's somewhat akin to continuously riding in the Tour de France (admittedly, not as physically intense), which "only" lasts 3 weeks. Again, there's the massive amounts of death to also deal with, which undoubtedly is extremely difficult.  

I don't think we can ever underestimate (or truly appreciate) how amazing our medical workers have been throughout this pandemic.  Heroes everywhere...

 

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24 minutes ago, sean327 said:

Enlighten us on your theory that real liberty is impossible to attain. And even if it somehow is impossible, I believe we as a people have an obligation to pursue it rather than concede it.

How about the whole air pollution thing that was brought up a while back? That's an easy one.

We all live together and share. There's no way around it. 

It's a noble pursuit, but no more noble than the pursuit of everybody being on the same page to take care of everyone. 

But like I said, both in their perfect extreme form are just as impossible.

 

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20 minutes ago, sean327 said:

Will you agree that we have too many laws, and that many of them restrict freedom rather than encourage it or support it?

In certain places. We need more regulation in other areas. All is beside the point that @toonkeewas making.

 

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I had an appointment with my general practitioner over the phone.  Not COV related.  Awesome doctor, been practicing for decades.  She told me about a study in Great Britain's equivalent of New England Medicine.  It estimates the mortality rate around 0.6% as more people are tested.  I saw another article yesterday estimating 0.66%.   I know we are still over 1%,  but hopefully as more data is gathered it continues to drop to less than 1% down the road.  She also stated they immediately isolate people who are showing symptoms when they come in,  but the office is still operating as normal otherwise.  I meant to ask her about testing if needed as we continue to hear conflicting reports in the media about availability.  She made me feel better knowing she is on the front line and just hearing how calm and professional she is about the whole situation.  

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26 minutes ago, alum93 said:

I had an appointment with my general practitioner over the phone.  Not COV related.  Awesome doctor, been practicing for decades.  She told me about a study in Great Britain's equivalent of New England Medicine.  It estimates the mortality rate around 0.6% as more people are tested.  I saw another article yesterday estimating 0.66%.   I know we are still over 1%,  but hopefully as more data is gathered it continues to drop to less than 1% down the road.  She also stated they immediately isolate people who are showing symptoms when they come in,  but the office is still operating as normal otherwise.  I meant to ask her about testing if needed as we continue to hear conflicting reports in the media about availability.  She made me feel better knowing she is on the front line and just hearing how calm and professional she is about the whole situation.  

I  saw my doctor in person yesterday, however she is screening patients very carefully and doing most appointments by telephone. She took mine because she needed to give me a written prescription for a controlled substance and knows I wouldn’t come if I had any virus symptoms. 

As I was driving to my appointment I passed a Cvirus testing station at a local parking garage. The line of cars wasn’t very long, but it seemed so surreal with the tents and testing people in hazmat suits. Idaho is up to more than 500 positive tests now when two weeks ago there were a hand full. Give it two more weeks and it will be thousands. Still its nothing like NY. 

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