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RogueStout

Is there any defensible argument against banning transgender (mtof) folks from participating in women's sports?

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15 minutes ago, sean327 said:

I still have good friends on active duty in both the 03xx and 08xx MOS’s. This little experiment with women in Combat Arms jobs isn’t going so well. Yes the women are getting through MOS school, but once they hit the Fleet and start the real training things are going South. Injuries are piling up, the women are having a hard time keeping up with their male counterparts in the field. It’s a mess. But the company line is still “All is good”. 

In today’s technological warfare, women can pull the trigger as easy as men. However, trying to carry a wounded 200 lb guy off the battlefield and similar type heavy lifting, and hand to hand combat,  is another matter for most women that aren’t body builders. 

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22 minutes ago, sean327 said:

I still have good friends on active duty in both the 03xx and 08xx MOS’s. This little experiment with women in Combat Arms jobs isn’t going so well. Yes the women are getting through MOS school, but once they hit the Fleet and start the real training things are going South. Injuries are piling up, the women are having a hard time keeping up with their male counterparts in the field. It’s a mess. But the company line is still “All is good”. 

The Army's old physical fitness test was 3 events and the standards were based on age and sex. Recently they have introduced a new test with 7 events and requirements based on MOS. Women have been disproportionately failing this test (40-50% pass rate).  This is problem will need to be addressed in the coming years, as it is a scientific reality that in general women cannot perform at the same level physically as men. I see only two options for the military: either create another set of standards based on sex or begin phasing more women out of the military. It will be interesting to see the public outcry if the military is forced to admit their mistakes.

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12 minutes ago, soupslam1 said:

In today’s technological warfare, women can pull the trigger as easy as men. However, trying to carry a wounded 200 lb guy off the battlefield and similar type heavy lifting, and hand to hand combat,  is another matter for most women that aren’t body builders. 

It’s not just about pulling triggers. It’s about humping combat loads over shitty terrain, humping 95lb artillery rounds from the ammo truck to the gun pit, it’s about ramming said round into the breech, a task that takes two male Marines to do. It’s about busting track on M1s and AAVs, humping a mortar tube, a base plate, or mortar rounds and then being able to set up up and put steel on target in 2 minutes. Combat Arms jobs are brutal on the body. There is a reason the average infantry or artillery man only do one enlistment in the MOS. They either get out of the military or lat move to another MOS. 

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29 minutes ago, sean327 said:

It’s not just about pulling triggers. It’s about humping combat loads over shitty terrain, humping 95lb artillery rounds from the ammo truck to the gun pit, it’s about ramming said round into the breech, a task that takes two male Marines to do. It’s about busting track on M1s and AAVs, humping a mortar tube, a base plate, or mortar rounds and then being able to set up up and put steel on target in 2 minutes. Combat Arms jobs are brutal on the body. There is a reason the average infantry or artillery man only do one enlistment in the MOS. They either get out of the military or lat move to another MOS. 

Ah, the good old days in Siphon 8 area.  

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1 hour ago, sean327 said:

Unless you happen to be a member of the Houston Astros or a boxing promoter, athletic competition is supposed to be an endeavor that is as fair as humanly possible. Putting biological males into women’s competition blows that principle out of the water. Contrary to what those of the “woke” contingent believe, it is scientific fact that men and women differ greatly in muscle and bone composition. If a Trans athlete wants to compete they should be allowed to, but hey need to compete as whatever sex they were born as. This should be common sense, but for some stupid reason it’s not.

The issue I have is that the incidence of intersex people is higher than the incidence of transgender (which... just absolutely terrible name. Why is it not transsex?) people. If you are so hung up on the 1/10,000 people then I don't get the lack of examination of looking at people whose phenotypical sex and chromosomal sex don't match or aren't normal. Otherwise it smacks of "this thing is icky and this is a convenient tool I can use to fight them ickies". 

43 minutes ago, Los_Aztecas said:

The Army's old physical fitness test was 3 events and the standards were based on age and sex. Recently they have introduced a new test with 7 events and requirements based on MOS. Women have been disproportionately failing this test (40-50% pass rate).  This is problem will need to be addressed in the coming years, as it is a scientific reality that in general women cannot perform at the same level physically as men. I see only two options for the military: either create another set of standards based on sex or begin phasing more women out of the military. It will be interesting to see the public outcry if the military is forced to admit their mistakes.

as @East Coast Aztec has pointed out, the Space Force is right there. IMO it is more feminist to have the test be MOS based and accept the exceptional women who pass than have gender based testing but OTOH it's not exactly my place to claim that either. 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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56 minutes ago, Los_Aztecas said:

The Army's old physical fitness test was 3 events and the standards were based on age and sex. Recently they have introduced a new test with 7 events and requirements based on MOS. Women have been disproportionately failing this test (40-50% pass rate).  This is problem will need to be addressed in the coming years, as it is a scientific reality that in general women cannot perform at the same level physically as men. I see only two options for the military: either create another set of standards based on sex or begin phasing more women out of the military. It will be interesting to see the public outcry if the military is forced to admit their mistakes.

That second sentence just pissed me off.  I need to eat some crayons and take a nap.  

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2 minutes ago, happycamper said:

The issue I have is that the incidence of intersex people is higher than the incidence of transgender (which... just absolutely terrible name. Why is it not transsex?) people. If you are so hung up on the 1/10,000 people then I don't get the lack of examination of looking at people whose phenotypical sex and chromosomal sex don't match or aren't normal. Otherwise it smacks of "this thing is icky and this is a convenient tool I can use to fight them ickies". 

Or how about intersex people are born a certain way and that’s a good deal different than going through puberty as another sex and trying to offset that through a cocktail of drugs that don’t replace years of natural development. Yes, intolerant and ignorant people will get behind the issue, just like they do for every issue on every side. That’s not an argument for why girls should have to compete unfairly.

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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5 minutes ago, East Coast Aztec said:

That second sentence just pissed me off.  I need to eat some crayons and take a nap.  

Curious as to why? 

1 minute ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

Or how about intersex people are born a certain way and that’s a good deal different than going through puberty as another sex and trying to offset that through a cocktail of drugs that don’t replace years of natural development. Yes, intolerant and ignorant people will get behind the issue, just like they do for every issue on every side. That’s not an argument for why girls should have to compete unfairly.

The arguments that people put together against transgender... +++++ it. I'm going with transsexual people invariably capture intersex people and then never address them. If people cared about the issue, they'd know that and not frame their arguments in that manner. They don't. they don't care about the issue. they care about the icky. 

It's easy to not like something because of a feeling and then seek out reasons to justify it. I mean... like 95% of the history of race relations in this country is essentially that. I don't have a problem with rules about transsexual people competing in sports. I have a big problem when said rules are written or justified using language that ignores, excludes, or, uh, gray-areas just as numerous (or more numerous depending on how you count) intersex people, as if it isn't an issue that's part of the same coin. that reveals ignorance and intent. 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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5 minutes ago, happycamper said:

Curious as to why? 

The arguments that people put together against transgender... +++++ it. I'm going with transsexual people invariably capture intersex people and then never address them. If people cared about the issue, they'd know that and not frame their arguments in that manner. They don't. they don't care about the issue. they care about the icky. 

It's easy to not like something because of a feeling and then seek out reasons to justify it. I mean... like 95% of the history of race relations in this country is essentially that. I don't have a problem with rules about transsexual people competing in sports. I have a big problem when said rules are written or justified using language that ignores, excludes, or, uh, gray-areas just as numerous (or more numerous depending on how you count) intersex people, as if it isn't an issue that's part of the same coin. that reveals ignorance and intent. 

What's the intent? 

lamb-with-human-face-150331-670.jpg?itok

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Just now, RogueStout said:

What's the intent? 

punish or erase people that make me feel icky

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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1 minute ago, happycamper said:

Curious as to why? 

Marines don't parse basic qualifications by job codes.  Every Marine is (relatively) a Rifleman.  Basic fitness quals based on jobs seems counter to the Marines ethos.

Quote

The arguments that people put together against transgender... +++++ it. I'm going with transsexual people invariably capture intersex people and then never address them. If people cared about the issue, they'd know that and not frame their arguments in that manner. They don't. they don't care about the issue. they care about the icky. 

It's easy to not like something because of a feeling and then seek out reasons to justify it. I mean... like 95% of the history of race relations in this country is essentially that. I don't have a problem with rules about transsexual people competing in sports. I have a big problem when said rules are written or justified using language that ignores, excludes, or, uh, gray-areas just as numerous (or more numerous depending on how you count) intersex people, as if it isn't an issue that's part of the same coin. that reveals ignorance and intent. 

It isn't "icky", it is not wanting to see women disadvantaged in physical competition by people who had biological traits of a male for X amount of times.  It is more of an emotional response to vouch for someone who was born a male compete with woman after medical procedures.  If there are legitimate instances where there is a biological anomaly where a male was essentially a woman (high estrogen, low testosterone, bone and muscle development being that of a woman than a male), than those "icky" cases should be looked at and potentially, they could compete in women's sports.  But someone saying they just feel like a woman, and go through the process in their teens is still a physically developed male.  It isn't icky, it is disadvantageous to women.  It's like allowing steroids in sports, it's an unnatural advantage.  I have yet to see anyone say anything that is actually discriminatory or negative to anyone in this thread yet. 

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50 minutes ago, East Coast Aztec said:

Ah, the good old days in Siphon 8 area.  

I still go out to the FOB at Siphon 8 every WTI. You wouldn’t recognize the place anymore. It’s been built up and has permanent guard towers now.

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4 minutes ago, happycamper said:

punish or erase people that make me feel icky

I will have to admit I am (was) part of the "ignorant" you described, because I don't know anything about intersexed folks, and have never given the topic a second thought.

If I follow your train of thought, you are against policy barring transgender sex people from competing in gender based sports because, A - It is at best an edge case, and B - Because you feel it is being weaponized by anti trans people?

Do you think it is appropriate for M to F trans women to compete against CIC Females?

Am i saying any of this right? +++++ing confusing topic for me. 

lamb-with-human-face-150331-670.jpg?itok

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5 minutes ago, sean327 said:

I still go out to the FOB at Siphon 8 every WTI. You wouldn’t recognize the place anymore. It’s been built up and has permanent guard towers now.

Definitely had nothing but noticeable use of land in 06.  Strange place.

 

Do you know where that SeAL site is around there?  I will google map the old Siphon 8, but had some fun at the SeAL training compound but can't see it in there.  Must be super ninja.

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Just now, East Coast Aztec said:

Definitely had nothing but noticeable use of land in 06.  Strange place.

 

Do you know where that SeAL site is around there?  I will google map the old Siphon 8, but had some fun at the SeAL training compound but can't see it in there.  Must be super ninja.

Camp Billy Macon. We set up about half a click from there for a couple of WTI evolutions.

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Joe Rogan is very passionate about this topic. He feels that trans athletes should only compete against other trans athletes and honestly I agree. I've never heard of a female transition to male and dominate a men's sport, but when males transition to female and compete in women's sports they set records.

 

0918_FootballVBoise(Weir)6081.jpg.91934a8a511e3532b39599f1988bbacb.jpg

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