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soupslam1

Student Debt

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6 minutes ago, soupslam1 said:

Yes and I would have got through in half the time if I didn’t have to take a bunch of bullshit subjects that had little to do with my career choice. Maybe that’s part of the debt solution to tailor course work to the career choice instead of ceramics electives and get people through in half the time. 

Those "bullshit subjects" are there because having a wide range of skills makes more successful workers than learning technical processes by rote. College is supposed to make innovators, managers, inventors, not cogs in the machine. Furthermore, they tend to make better citizens, too. Are you in favor of cutting civics?

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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9 minutes ago, NMpackalum said:

I think the government is doing plenty to address the cost of education. 25 states including Oregon have discounted or free tuition programs. The lottery scholarship in NM is great. The problem as I see it still comes down to expectations of the students. My daughter essentially was offered a free ride to UNM but chose to go to NYU. My twin boys want to leave the state despite likely getting the same deal. Luckily I have saved in their 529 plans since they were babies. I still can't afford private school for all 3 so they get the choices in the WUE schools. Luckily they are smart enough to avoid loans with these options. Obvious choice is to stay in state. If students want to spend 200k on a degree from a private or out of state full tuition college school, they should accept the consequences. The student debt crisis hasn't been a secret.

IIRC, if you graduate with a 4.0 from a Wyoming high school, you get a full ride to UW.  Then it goes down in increments of how much is covered according to your GPA.  I believe this was set up with Wyoming setting aside a billion dollars in an endowment to fund this.  I believe Wyoming's out of state tuition is still cheaper than most of Colorado universities in state tuition.

 

 

 

 

down in a hole.jpg

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6 minutes ago, happycamper said:

IT IS A GOVERNMENT EDUCATION SYSTEM AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN!

Holy hell! Government makes everything worse but gets zero credit for creating the best tertiary education system in the world?

Government is needed and does some great things. It’s when they try and control and regulate every damn thing it turns to shit. 

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11 minutes ago, happycamper said:

Those "bullshit subjects" are there because having a wide range of skills makes more successful workers than learning technical processes by rote. College is supposed to make innovators, managers, inventors, not cogs in the machine. Furthermore, they tend to make better citizens, too. Are you in favor of cutting civics?

Yeah like those art history and mans religions classes had such a huge impact on my career. People that are interested in those subjects can do it on their own time instead of forcing you to spend an extra two years on the public’s and your dime. 

Civics may be warranted in K-12, but I don’t see that you should be forced to take it in college unless you’re a poli sci major.

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Just now, soupslam1 said:

Yeah like those art history and mans religions classes had such a huge impact on my career. People that are interested in those subjects can do it on their own time instead of forcing you to spend an extra two years on the public’s and your dime. 

If you only want a two year education, there are schools just for that. No what you claim are "bullshit classes", just core curriculum.

 

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2 minutes ago, renoskier said:

If you only want a two year education, there are schools just for that. No what you claim are "bullshit classes", just core curriculum.

 

Not when I went through. Maybe a lot more kids should take advantage and get through in two years. Debt problem solved. 

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5 minutes ago, soupslam1 said:

Yeah like those art history and mans religions classes had such a huge impact on my career. People that are interested in those subjects can do it on their own time instead of forcing you to spend an extra two years on the public’s and your dime. 

Civics may be warranted in K-12, but I don’t see that you should be forced to take it in college unless you’re a poli sci major.

"all I need to know about the government and other people I learned as a 14 year old"?

Just now, soupslam1 said:

Not when I went through. Maybe a lot more kids should take advantage and get through in two years. Debt problem solved. 

I mean, you get what you pay for doesn't totally apply here... but it doesn't not apply either

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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7 minutes ago, Bob said:

Yes. +++++ing academics are so overpaid it's not funny. So many damn administrative positions. It's a crazy, bloated, excessive world. Definitely need a moratorium on new diversity positions lol

We have some old college friends who became tenured professors. When we hear from them it seems like they are always on sabbatical traveling all over the world. 

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1 minute ago, happycamper said:

"all I need to know about the government and other people I learned as a 14 year old"?

I mean, you get what you pay for doesn't totally apply here... but it doesn't not apply either

You got through high school at fourteen? I didn’t realize I was conversing with a genius. Now it explains everything. 

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36 minutes ago, NMpackalum said:

I think the government is doing plenty to address the cost of education. 25 states including Oregon have discounted or free tuition programs. The lottery scholarship in NM is great. The problem as I see it still comes down to expectations of the students. My daughter essentially was offered a free ride to UNM but chose to go to NYU. My twin boys want to leave the state despite likely getting the same deal. Luckily I have saved in their 529 plans since they were babies. I still can't afford private school for all 3 so they get the choices in the WUE schools. Luckily they are smart enough to avoid loans with these options. Obvious choice is to stay in state. If students want to spend 200k on a degree from a private or out of state full tuition college school, they should accept the consequences. The student debt crisis hasn't been a secret.

What you're talking about is all true, and I agree that most of those who go out of state and pay the full freight do so at their own peril. In-state is definitely more affordable and a better option for most. To that point, my friend's son, an engineering student, decided to transfer after one year at Montana State, where he qualified for WUE and some scholarships, to attend Dixie State and live with his grandparents. It was strictly a cost decision after racking up thousands of dollars in debt in his first year. There was no 529 waiting for him, so he made the decision that worked for him, one that was aided by his academic prowess.

I don't worry about exceptional students, though. The money is typically there for them regardless of financial status. But the free tuition programs you speak of are limited, including in Oregon. And most college-worthy kids aren't an exceptional academic talent (or even qualify for WUE), as your kids appear to be. And parents are often not as forward-thinking to save in 529s — some by choice any many others by circumstance. And therein lies the problem. Those kids walk out of college with tons of debt, and even more if they decide a graduate degree, which is becoming more and more necessary. 

Again, I don't think it is too much to ask that state colleges be more affordable, more in line with what my generation paid for college (adjusted for inflation, of course). How we get to that point is up for debate.

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15 minutes ago, renoskier said:

If you only want a two year education, there are schools just for that. No what you claim are "bullshit classes", just core curriculum.

 

God forbid students walk out of college with a well-rounded education.

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3 minutes ago, soupslam1 said:

You got through high school at fourteen? I didn’t realize I was conversing with a genius. Now it explains everything. 

I somehow survived civics at 14. Stunning achievement, I know. 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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1 minute ago, NVGiant said:

What you're talking about is all true, and I agree that most of those who go out of state and pay the full freight do so at their own peril. In-state is definitely more affordable and a better option for most. To that point, my friend's son, an engineering student, decided to transfer after one year at Montana State, where he qualified for WUE and some scholarships, to attend Dixie State and live with his grandparents. It was strictly a cost decision after racking up thousands of dollars in debt in his first year. There was no 529 waiting for him, so he made the decision that worked for him, one that was aided by his academic prowess.

I don't worry about exceptional students, though. The money is typically there for them regardless of financial status. But the free tuition programs you speak of are limited, including in Oregon. And most college-worthy kids aren't an exceptional academic talent (or even qualify for WUE), as your kids appear to be. And parents are often not as forward-thinking to save in 529s — some by choice any many others by circumstance. And therein lies the problem. Those kids walk out of college with tons of debt, and even more if they decide a graduate degree, which is becoming more and more necessary. 

Again, I don't think it is too much to ask that state colleges be more affordable, more in line with what my generation paid for college (adjusted for inflation, of course). How we get to that point is up for debate.

In NM, all students can get the lottery scholarship which only requires a 2.5 GPA. It used to be 100 percent of tuition but now it's 60percent. Because of the budget surplus from those damn frackers, the legislature is trying to make it 100% again.

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15 minutes ago, Bob said:

Yes. +++++ing academics are so overpaid it's not funny. So many damn administrative positions. It's a crazy, bloated, excessive world. Definitely need a moratorium on new diversity positions lol

I think you are making an antiquated argument. The percentage of tenure-track professorships is down dramatically, now only accounting for about a quarter of all faculty positions. That means we're relying on part-timers and grad students to shape those young minds. And education is still overpriced.

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5 minutes ago, NMpackalum said:

In NM, all students can get the lottery scholarship which only requires a 2.5 GPA. It used to be 100 percent of tuition but now it's 60percent. Because of the budget surplus from those damn frackers, the legislature is trying to make it 100% again.

I think that is fantastic. Nevada did something similar with the Millenium Scholarship, as I'm sure you know, but the GPA needed to qualify keeps creeping up (I think 3.25 GPA now), and percentage of what's covered keeps going down. 

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2 minutes ago, soupslam1 said:

You’ve got the sales pitch down pat. Are you or were you a high school counselor or a college administrator? 

Nope. I just believe deeply in the value of public education.

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28 minutes ago, NVGiant said:

I think you are making an antiquated argument. The percentage of tenure-track professorships is down dramatically, now only accounting for about a quarter of all faculty positions. That means we're relying on part-timers and grad students to shape those young minds. And education is still overpriced.

I don't think Bob is talking about professors in the classrooms and research labs but about the Vice Provost for the Advancement of University Studies in the University type of positions. And universities do have way too many of those. Administrative bloating is a huge concern in higher education and part of the reason departments can't afford enough full-time professors anymore. 

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6 minutes ago, I am Ram said:

I don't think Bob is talking about professors in the classrooms and research labs but about the Vice Provost for the Advancement of University Studies in the University type of positions. And universities do have way too many of those. Administrative bloating is a huge concern in higher education and part of the reason departments can't afford enough full-time professors anymore. 

If that is indeed what he is talking about, then I do agree.

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